View Poll Results: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

Voters
53. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    9 16.98%
  • Probably

    2 3.77%
  • Maybe

    8 15.09%
  • Probably not

    0 0%
  • No

    33 62.26%
  • Don't know

    1 1.89%
Page 7 of 35 FirstFirst ... 5678917 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 70 of 344

Thread: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

  1. #61
    global liberation

    ecofarm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Miami
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:12 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    66,313

    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    IIRC, it went something like...

    Most libertarians supported Bush, despite him being a dirty thumping big-government type.

    And, Bush is a (lying, torturing, murdering) fascist. Ergo...
    Last edited by ecofarm; 11-05-10 at 01:39 PM.

  2. #62
    Sage
    Ikari's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    12-08-17 @ 01:05 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    54,124

    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    IIRC, it went something like...

    Most libertarians supported Bush, despite him being a dirty thumping big-government type.

    And, Bush is a (lying, torturing, murdering) fascist. Ergo...
    So you have nothing to support the claim. All we have is a "IIRC". I supported Bush during the primary and first election. 2 years into his first Presidency, he secured my move to the LP. He campaigned on a no nation building, smaller and responsible government platform which I liked. We got the opposite. There are not many libertarians who actually supported Bush. Some may have begrudgingly taken him over the alternatives (foolish if you ask me, the lesser of two evils is still evil), but none supported him fully. Not with interventionist wars and horrible power grabs like the Patriot Act.

    So I suppose you can take your supposition and cram it with walnuts. Come back when y'all have some actual proof or at least a logical and sound argument.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  3. #63
    Sage
    German guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Last Seen
    08-24-17 @ 06:57 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    5,187

    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    I have met both types of self-identifying libertarians: Genuine libertarians with integrity, who stay true to their ideas of small government, no matter if the President expanding big government is named Bush or Obama, and people who call themselves "libertarian", but I don't seem to care about Bush's big government policies.

    A good example for the former, who I really respect, are the guys at CATO Institute:

    The Cato Institute

    One of their guys has even written a book that's very critical of Republican big government:

    Amazon.com: leviathan on the right

    I found that book very enlightening. It did a good job of explaining how traditional small government-conservatism has been marginalized within the Republican party by neocons (whose roots even go back to Trotzkist communism) and theocons, who both favor big government policies. And it adds a lot to the credibility of genuine libertarians, IMHO -- when you are coherent to the ideals of small government, you cannot complain about Obama on one side, but ignore the Patriot Act, the expansion of the military and other big government policies, just because it were Republicans doing it, on the other side.

    I have great respect for such genuine libertarians. But I think there are others who are not really libertarians, but rather partisan closet conservatives who have just chosen this label because it's en vogue.
    Last edited by German guy; 11-05-10 at 02:04 PM.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  4. #64
    Sage
    Harry Guerrilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Not affiliated with other libertarians.
    Last Seen
    09-01-17 @ 02:38 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    28,955

    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    I have met both types of self-identifying libertarians: Genuine libertarians with integrity, who stay true to their ideas of small government, no matter if the President expanding big government is named Bush or Obama, and people who call themselves "libertarian", but I don't seem to care about Bush's big government policies.

    A good example for the former, who I really respect, are the guys at CATO Institute:

    The Cato Institute

    One of their guys has even written a book that's very critical of Republican big government:

    Amazon.com: leviathan on the right

    I found that book very enlightening. It did a good job of explaining how traditional small government-conservatism has been marginalized within the Republican party by neocons (whose roots even go back to Trotzkist communism) and theocons, who both favor big government policies. And it adds a lot to the credibility of genuine libertarians, IMHO -- when you are coherent to the ideals of small government, you cannot complain about Obama on one side, but ignore the Patriot Act, the expansion of the military and other big government policies, just because it were Republicans doing it, on the other side.

    I have great respect for such genuine libertarians. But I think there are others who are not really libertarians, but rather partisan closet conservatives who have just chosen this label because it's en vogue.
    Cato is probably one of the best institutions to draw policy from, but they generally get ignored or painted as some quasi Republican mouth piece, when that isn't true at all.


    This reminds me, I want a Cato coffee cup for Christmas.
    Last edited by Harry Guerrilla; 11-05-10 at 02:13 PM.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  5. #65
    Professor
    Saboteur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:54 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    2,210

    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Word Origin & History

    fascism

    1922, originally used in English 1920 in its Italian form (see fascist). Applied to similar groups in Germany from 1923; applied to everyone since the rise of the Internet.
    "A form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion." [Robert O. Paxton, "The Anatomy of Fascism," 2004]
    Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper
    Cite This Source


    Hmm, I voted no but I should have voted yes.

    Last edited by Saboteur; 11-05-10 at 02:32 PM.
    “We must picture hell as a state where everyone is perpetually concerned about his own dignity and advancement, where everyone has a grievance, and where everyone lives with the deadly serious passions of envy, self-importance, and resentment.”
    ― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters

  6. #66
    global liberation

    ecofarm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Miami
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:12 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    66,313

    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    So you have nothing to support the claim. All we have is a "IIRC". I supported Bush during the primary and first election. 2 years into his first Presidency, he secured my move to the LP. He campaigned on a no nation building, smaller and responsible government platform which I liked. We got the opposite. There are not many libertarians who actually supported Bush. Some may have begrudgingly taken him over the alternatives (foolish if you ask me, the lesser of two evils is still evil), but none supported him fully. Not with interventionist wars and horrible power grabs like the Patriot Act.

    So I suppose you can take your supposition and cram it with walnuts. Come back when y'all have some actual proof or at least a logical and sound argument.
    I was summarizing someone else's argument that libertarianism leads to fascism.

  7. #67
    Sage
    Ikari's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    12-08-17 @ 01:05 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    54,124

    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    I was summarizing someone else's argument that libertarianism leads to fascism.
    Ahh, sorry. It's hard to tell in this thread as people are trying to pass off similar arguments as legitimate.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  8. #68
    Sage
    Harry Guerrilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Not affiliated with other libertarians.
    Last Seen
    09-01-17 @ 02:38 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    28,955

    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Does Troubadour inadvertently enable stupidity by continually making silly and absurd libertarian attack threads?
    Been thinking on this a bit and I think the more we are talked about, the more legitimate the movement becomes.
    It's kinda nice, when we have largely been left to obscurity.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  9. #69
    global liberation

    ecofarm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Miami
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:12 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    66,313

    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Troubadour View Post
    I have to strongly disagree on that, given the levels at which they've supported Republican politics. While there was some principled (and largely perfunctory) opposition to George W. Bush's policies among libertarians, it seemed they considered low taxation a higher priority than protecting basic constitutional liberties. A man who literally defended his policies by citing the medieval Divine Right of Kings doctrine had very strong support among Small Government advocates.
    Quote Originally Posted by Troubadour View Post
    Then allow me to rephrase: People who claim to support "small government," advocate lower taxes, and oppose public spending on infrastructure and social programs overwhelmingly supported George W. Bush...

    And how many of those guns would side with tyranny if it promised them tax cuts and the eradication of social programs? If it called itself a "small government" committed to "free enterprise" and insisted that its atrocities were merely "defending America against Socialists"? Given what I saw during the Bush years, something tells me it's more likely those guns would remain in their cabinets, if not be volunteered in service to "eradicate the plague of Socialism."
    Quote Originally Posted by Troubadour View Post
    He tortured and murdered people, built torture camps, engaged in a treasonous conspiracy to invade a country that hadn't attacked us, spent a trillion dollars conquering and destroying that country, got tens of thousands of people killed (and hundreds of thousand indirectly through the chaos that ensued), turned the United States into a global pariah, conspired with dictators against foreign democracies, did nothing while an American city was destroyed and then left it to rot, hired prostitutes and actors to pose as reporters and praise him during press conferences, removed embarrassing remarks from official transcripts, enforced a five-mile-wide protest-free zone around himself, forced people to make personal loyalty oaths to him if they wanted to talk to him, falsified government documents as a matter of routine, shrouded the entire government in secrecy, had the Department of Homeland Security investigating his opponents, ignored subpoenas, and for all intents and purposes declared himself Emperor.

    So no, Turtle, George W. Bush was not "better than the alternatives" by any stretch of even the most twisted imagination - he was a savagely Orwellian, murdering liar, and Republicans preferred and still prefer him over his opponents because he cut their taxes. That's it. He paid them off. They sold their country for a tax cut, and will do it again at the first opportunity. The Republican Party is no longer American in any way, shape, or form. It is a treasonous, seditious pustule consisting of people who are only in it for themselves alone, and willing to subject their own children to a hellish future for the immediate illusion of personal wealth. That anyone would say mass-murder, torture, and the elimination of the 4th Amendment was preferrable to tax increases is beyond unconscionable. You should be ashamed to even imply such things.

    The point of this thread is that libertarian ideology is so easily puppeteered by people like Bush, Cheney, and Rove.
    Tell him to shove walnuts, he made the thread/argument - not me.

    x-post: No problem, I just wanted to make clear the "evidence" being used by the OP.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 11-05-10 at 02:47 PM.

  10. #70
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Last Seen
    07-25-11 @ 05:42 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    464

    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No, the point of this thread is to attack libertarian political philosophy without backing up any of the attack. Nothing presented here has backed your point. You've just made another troll libertarian attack thread with as little intellectual honesty or value as possible. Congrats.
    I think I've made some pretty rigorous arguments, so either you must have simply ignored them or you're looking for something more. What more would you like?

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    D00d with this guy everything is still about bush.
    No, only things that actually are. But you make it increasingly clear that with you, nothing is about anything. You haven't listened to a word I've said, you asked questions whose answers you didn't want to hear, and then you made unbelievably stupid, flippant remarks about war crimes as if you were talking about sports or pop culture. There is a serious reality deficit going on in your comments. Be a substantive contributor to this discussion or not, it's your choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    IIRC, it went something like...

    Most libertarians supported Bush, despite him being a dirty thumping big-government type.

    And, Bush is a (lying, torturing, murdering) fascist. Ergo...
    More or less, although the size of government is irrelevant. Bush could have been a lying, torturing, murdering fascist with a balanced budget and a flat tax - these things are just funding mechanisms, and have nothing to do with what powers a government asserts. Police in some socialist European countries are not even allowed to pat down criminal suspects without a warrant, IIRC.

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    I have met both types of self-identifying libertarians: Genuine libertarians with integrity, who stay true to their ideas of small government, no matter if the President expanding big government is named Bush or Obama, and people who call themselves "libertarian", but I don't seem to care about Bush's big government policies.
    I've had many discussions with "genuine" libertarians, and even they often reveal warped priorities by how they address the issue. One gets the distinct impression that they don't see a greater freedom imperative in preventing torture and military aggression than avoiding tax increases, so they say things like "Bush was a big government leader too" or "Bush was just as bad as (insert Democrat)." Hearing such things, I'm not exactly filled with confidence that these people would be highly motivated to defend their country against a tyrant who was solidly on board with their views on taxation. They probably wouldn't support a leader like that, but when taxes aren't part of the equation, it's as if the whole thing becomes academic to them. So on the one hand we can reasonably say the "fake" libertarians would probably be on board with a fascist leader who adopted their rhetoric, and the "real" ones would mostly be ambivalent rather than determinedly opposed. I see my basic thesis as being strengthened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Cato is probably one of the best institutions to draw policy from, but they generally get ignored or painted as some quasi Republican mouth piece, when that isn't true at all.
    I wouldn't characterize Cato as quasi-Republican. They are definitely rigorously ideological - almost to the point of religious - in their application of libertarian articles of faith in formulating economic positions. However, while the sincerity of their members might not be in question, their funding base includes a number of powerful, predatory corporations, so we basically have True Believers being wielded as weapons by the most cynical of interests. As for their output, it's typically on a level that would literally be laughed out of a 1st-year economics course, but is usually presented as the august word of experts because of the money behind them. They speak through the lens of "Laffer Curve reality," where zero taxation would equal infinite revenue. So it's not really a think tank - not much thinking can go on when your conclusions are predetermined - but more of a libertarian monastery.
    Last edited by Troubadour; 11-05-10 at 02:55 PM.

Page 7 of 35 FirstFirst ... 5678917 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •