View Poll Results: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

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Thread: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

  1. #281
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    And how do they do that?
    You're using something that they already helped pay for as leverage to make them do as you want. In effect they have to do something twice to receive the service. They paid for their debt to society, at least the debt that comes from the infrastructure.
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  2. #282
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Not at all. I would guess that most of the infrastructure was already there before they even opened their doors. But it does not matter since we all benefit and enjoy the bounty from it. And I do not think that any of us - in business or not in business - could ever really pay our debt for the nation we were lucky enough to fall into or move to. We are blessed beyond what our meager contribution could ever pay for.
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  3. #283
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Thanks to the Libertarians that have described their Libertarianism in this thread. I really didn't know much about the Libertarian position but have a much clearer view now.
    May all beings give and receive compassion, Live free from fear, And dwell in peace. - author unknown

  4. #284
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Not at all. I would guess that most of the infrastructure was already there before they even opened their doors. But it does not matter since we all benefit and enjoy the bounty from it. And I do not think that any of us - in business or not in business - could ever really pay our debt for the nation we were lucky enough to fall into or move to. We are blessed beyond what our meager contribution could ever pay for.
    You certainly can pay for it and to upkeep it. They are called taxes, and businesses pay them just like anyone else.

    If I pay a kid for lemonade, I have a cup of lemonade and the kid has 50 cents. I may be cooled and refreshed by the lemonade, but I already paid him. I don't owe him anything more for the wonder of coolness and refreshment of this glorious beverage. He has his money, and I have my service. Why is it still unequal?
    Last edited by DrunkenAsparagus; 11-15-10 at 12:20 AM.
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  5. #285
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Business in this land businesses do not exist without both the infrastructure which has been provided by the government and the customers provided by society who is represented by government. That is simply reality. To deny it is to deny reality.

    Sorry, but I do not know what you mean by government maintaining control over private property.
    If the government gets to decide who should do business with whom, then they are effectively in control of business.

    Let's look back at the old Wild West. Before government, you had people and businesses coming together to trade without any infrastructure built by the government. I'm forced to use electricity and gas from a natural monopoly created by the government. Does that justify putting my home under the jurisdiction of the government? Private property is private property, whether it is located in a residential or commercial zone.

  6. #286
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Since libertarianism incorporates many different spectra of thought I cannot give a definitive yes or no answer. However, paleolibertarianism does create a number of vulnerabilities. Understanding what would happen in the scenario envisioned by paleolibertarians should be approached by imagining what would happen if the powers of the nobles in a society were strengthened while the power of a king were weakened. As the king still exists the nobles simply begin playing many of those roles. Fascism is really a logical result as these nobles pool their resources and influence together.

    At its roots Fascism involves the pooling of power by different groups to form a sort of cabal that governs in place of a single distinct institution. Corporations have governance structures so it is just a matter of bringing these structures into accordance with each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    Civil Rights: I stand with Rand Paul on this issue. I would support virtually every part of the Civil Rights Act(s) except for the title that demands private businesses must serve everyone of the public. The freedom to do business also means the freedom to deny business. I don’t even understand where there are so many signs that state: “We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone” when the title of the Civil Rights Act still remains law. I don’t fear the massive reprisal of old white men looking to deny service to minorities, because minorities are potential customers. There have been studies done that illustrate it was the private businesses agitating public discriminatory laws. Private schools were agitating public law when they enrolled African-American students. Transportation companies were agitating public law when they sold first-class tickets to African-Americans. Sports companies were agitating public law when they began recruiting African-American players.
    Once more you make a rosy claim that ignores reality. Yes, some private businesses were tolerant or brought in people, but the reality is that many, if not most, businesses in the South at least were on the same side as the governments passing these discriminatory laws. That was specifically a function of attitudes among the people. Entire neighborhoods would be abandoned if a few black people moved into the area.
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  7. #287
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    Since libertarianism incorporates many different spectra of thought I cannot give a definitive yes or no answer. However, paleolibertarianism does create a number of vulnerabilities. Understanding what would happen in the scenario envisioned by paleolibertarians should be approached by imagining what would happen if the powers of the nobles in a society were strengthened while the power of a king were weakened. As the king still exists the nobles simply begin playing many of those roles. Fascism is really a logical result as these nobles pool their resources and influence together.

    At its roots Fascism involves the pooling of power by different groups to form a sort of cabal that governs in place of a single distinct institution. Corporations have governance structures so it is just a matter of bringing these structures into accordance with each other.
    We can have a rule of law that protects everyone equally, and we can propose a second Bill of Rights that ensures a separation of corporate (or business) and state power. I firmly believe that Hermann Georing was right when he said that fascism should be rightfully called corporatism, because it is the merger of state and corporate power. That is what enables fascism, or corporatism. When politicians control economic decisions, they ultimately are controlling human lives. Separate the state from the market, and refuse any and all tariffs, subsidies, preferential tax treatments, guaranteed loans, bailouts, stimulus packages, licensing procedures, state-sanctioned monopolies, and excessive regulation, and then you would essentially be moving away from a fascist (or corporatist) regime.



    Once more you make a rosy claim that ignores reality. Yes, some private businesses were tolerant or brought in people, but the reality is that many, if not most, businesses in the South at least were on the same side as the governments passing these discriminatory laws. That was specifically a function of attitudes among the people. Entire neighborhoods would be abandoned if a few black people moved into the area.
    But when it came time to change things, the advocates did not come from government agencies. Change always occurs from the bottom-up.

    And secondly, I feel I brought up a fairly strong example of libertarianism championing for civil rights when I brought up the Coolidge administration. Few people would argue with the opinion that Coolidge was the most libertarian U.S. president of the 20th century. And despite what some may think of his economic policies, his views on individual freedom and on civil rights in particular, were infuriating to the mainstream. As I said before, politicians wouldn't have the guts to stand up for civil rights until way later- arguably the mid-1950s, whereas Coolidge saw an end to the resurgent KKK, promoted the civil rights of African-Americans, and recognized the Native American's right to citizenship and cultural rights.

  8. #288
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    from E. Galt

    If the government gets to decide who should do business with whom, then they are effectively in control of business.
    Could you please be specific and give me some examples outside of public utilities or public services?
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  9. #289
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Not at all. I would guess that most of the infrastructure was already there before they even opened their doors. But it does not matter since we all benefit and enjoy the bounty from it. And I do not think that any of us - in business or not in business - could ever really pay our debt for the nation we were lucky enough to fall into or move to. We are blessed beyond what our meager contribution could ever pay for.
    Statements like this always reflect a fundamental misunderstanding of exactly why it is we're fortunate to be here. Hint: it isn't because of government services and "infrastructure."
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  10. #290
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    We can have a rule of law that protects everyone equally, and we can propose a second Bill of Rights that ensures a separation of corporate (or business) and state power.
    Do you really not get it? Separating corporate power from state power is like trying to pull oxygen out of water with your bare hands. Are you going to ban people in a corporation from talking to politicians? Will you ban wealthy people from holding public office? How about preventing people formerly in public office from becoming businessmen?
    Last edited by Demon of Light; 11-15-10 at 02:59 PM.
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