View Poll Results: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

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Thread: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

  1. #261
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Troubadour View Post
    Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism ...?

    you ask that question as if it's a bad thing
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

  2. #262
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Harshaw
    Actually this is my response when I think somebody has an idea that may have merit and deserve further discussion. In addition, it is my response when I do not want to do a discourtesy to the person who began this thread by derailing it.
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  3. #263
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    And so it begins. The usual FDR as Satan or at least his son. And what does FDR have to do with the authors of the Constitution being libertarians? What does FDR have to do with the libertarian record on civil rights?
    It has nothing to do specifically with that, but it is evidence that you don’t need to be a flawless human being in order to be admired. You don’t need to support slavery in order to support the founding fathers and their ideas. You don’t need to support concentration camps in order to support FDR and his ideas.

    Again, for the third time, the affirmative action mention was in connection to making the point to refute your claim that libertarians want such wonderful things for all mankind.
    What the hell are you talking about? Doesn’t everyone want wonderful things for all mankind? Affirmative Action IS NOT a wonderful thing, no matter how you slice it. And what’s more wonderful than supporting the individual’s right to freedom?

    In point of fact, they are almost always in opposition to everything the African American civil rights community advocates... and AfAc is just one of those things. If you missed I told you that some reasonable people with solid civil rights records do indeed find fault with AfAct. fine. They have a strong civil rights record which shows they are not a racist or a right winger. But when a libertarian writes essays supporting the South in the Civil War, blasts the 14th Amendment, hates Reconstruction efforts, and opposes almost every 20th century proposal for civil rights laws and programs to help African Americans - it then has to be considered as part of an overall pattern of anti African American stands on important issues.
    NOW we’re getting somewhere! Thank you for being specific! Though I don’t deny that some libertarians have made questionable arguments regarding reconstruction and the 14th Amendment, you cannot stereotype ALL libertarians as a bunch of pro-slavery racists. Everyone from Noam Chomsky to Milton Friedman is self-identified as “libertarian.” If you want to ask me what I think, I’ll tell you.

    14th Amendment: I’m completely in support of it. Why wouldn’t I be? It demands that all natural born citizens, regardless of skin color, must be protected under the same citizenship clause as everyone else. There’s no reason why I, or any classical liberal, should be against the 14th Amendment. I take no sympathy for the Southern slavery states before, during, or after the civil war. In terms of forcing the Southern states to ratify the 13th and 14th amendments, I would have stood alongside radical republicans who called for martial law.

    I know some libertarians, in particular Ron Paul, would argue that the civil war wasn’t necessary, this is more idealistic in nature. When he makes the case, he doesn’t argue that slavery should have continued in the South, but that other countries (as you have pointed out) outlawed slavery without firing a single bullet.

    Reconstruction: I support it. Any time a central government defeats a country in war, it is THEIR obligation to restore order and to reconstruct the battered state.

    Civil Rights: I stand with Rand Paul on this issue. I would support virtually every part of the Civil Rights Act(s) except for the title that demands private businesses must serve everyone of the public. The freedom to do business also means the freedom to deny business. I don’t even understand where there are so many signs that state: “We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone” when the title of the Civil Rights Act still remains law. I don’t fear the massive reprisal of old white men looking to deny service to minorities, because minorities are potential customers. There have been studies done that illustrate it was the private businesses agitating public discriminatory laws. Private schools were agitating public law when they enrolled African-American students. Transportation companies were agitating public law when they sold first-class tickets to African-Americans. Sports companies were agitating public law when they began recruiting African-American players.

    The libertarians of my breed of thought generally are more obsessed with economics than anything else. In their opinion, public law should never discriminate against minorities, but that private individuals must be free to trade and to refuse to trade with other private individuals. Otherwise, we could use the same logic to argue that bars should be fined for allowing women in for free on Fridays or for providing ONLY women with free drinks. Airplane companies would be fined for requiring unusually large customers to buy two seats (or to be denied service, outright).


    Sometimes, people get a pass when their overall record indicates a different picture than one isolated snapshot may indicate. FDR is part of that pass for his terrible actions with Japanese Americans. That is not the case with libertarians and aff-action.
    You keep bringing up Affirmative Action when it is your WORST argument. And now you’re condoning the concentration camps set up by FDR’s Executive Order because it suits your ideological needs. You’re applying a double standard.

  4. #264
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Galt - please get this straight once and for all. I brought up affirmative action ONCE including with other civil rights issues that libertarians oppose. When you objected I said that while I can understand people opposing the program who otherwise have a positive record of supporting civil rights, as libertarians THEY HAVE NO SUCH RECORD. Instead, opposition to AF/AC is just one small item on a very long list starting with support for the secession of the South, support for the Confederacy, opposition to the 14th Amendment, opposition to Reconstruction and opposing almost every single Civil Rights law and proposal in the 20th century backed by the African American community.

    But go ahead and take af/action off the list for heavens sake. Its still one hell of a damning list for many libertarians.

    Is there some reason why you just don't get this? Forget about Af/action for heavens sake.

    Doesn’t everyone want wonderful things for all mankind? Mankind appears to be the least of many of their concerns.
    Nope. When you have a ideology based on selfishness and self interest above all else, you don't want wonderful things for mankind.
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    and one more thing Galt... you said this

    Civil Rights: I stand with Rand Paul on this issue. I would support virtually every part of the Civil Rights Act(s) except for the title that demands private businesses must serve everyone of the public. The freedom to do business also means the freedom to deny business.
    The business is open to the public. All the public. That so called private business could not operate or function without the tremendous infrastructure paid for by the people trough the institution of government. Every business in America which wants customers is subsidized one way or another by the infrastructure provided by government. If you are open to the public that means all the public.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  6. #266
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    and one more thing Galt... you said this



    The business is open to the public. All the public. That so called private business could not operate or function without the tremendous infrastructure paid for by the people trough the institution of government. Every business in America which wants customers is subsidized one way or another by the infrastructure provided by government. If you are open to the public that means all the public.

    Excellent. So, you would obviously agree with me that for business to post against lawful concealed carry is a form of discrimination, against permit-holders, and thus not to be allowed.

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  7. #267
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Why would this be any different than rulings indicating that a business may restrict persons for "no shirt -no shoes"? Restrictions based on a persons race, ethnicity, color, gender are based on something the potential customer cannot change. A restriction in a bar which does not allow someone to carry a firearm does not bar the person from the establishment. All they have to do is not bring in their weapon and they can still gain service just like anyone else. A person cannot do that with an establishment that is using race, ethnicity, color or gender to bar them as customers.

    It is two very different things.
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  8. #268
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Why would this be any different than rulings indicating that a business may restrict persons for "no shirt -no shoes"? Restrictions based on a persons race, ethnicity, color, gender are based on something the potential customer cannot change. A restriction in a bar which does not allow someone to carry a firearm does not bar the person from the establishment. All they have to do is not bring in their weapon and they can still gain service just like anyone else. A person cannot do that with an establishment that is using race, ethnicity, color or gender to bar them as customers.

    It is two very different things.
    "The right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness..."

    My right to life can be taken by someone who is armed and has ill intent, especially if I am not armed.

    Being armed is a Constitutional right.

    I don't give up my Constitutional rights when I enter a place of business. As long as I'm not disruptive and cause no trouble, I retain the right to free speech, freedom of religion, etc.

    A business might as well tell me "if someone attacks you, you have to stand there and do nothing while they murder/rape/beat/rob you". You wouldn't consider that reasonable now would you?

    The fact is I don't patronize businesses that post against concealed carry for that reason.

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  9. #269
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    from Goshin

    "The right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness..."
    Where are you getting that from? I have looked through the entire US Constitution and cannot find this in it.


    My right to life can be taken by someone who is armed and has ill intent, especially if I am not armed.
    It sure could. So what? Where you go and what danger you put yourself in is your choice. Perhaps you need to examine your choices if you are placing yourself in such jeapordy?

    Being armed is a Constitutional right.
    And it is well regulated as you know when your state issued you your CCW with certain restrictions and conditions that you accepted when you applied for it. The well regulated language is also part of the Constitution.

    You are attempting to connect two things that are not at all the same as I explained to you. It would be illegal and against the laws of the land for a business to restrict your being a customer based on your ethnicity, your race, your color, your gender or your age because there is nothing you can do to change those things. They are conditions of humanity that we as a people have decided to take beyond the control of the owner of a business.

    Your ability to carry a gun is not one of those things. You can change it anytime you want to change it. You have every right not to patronize a business when you object to their rules. That is fine and I have no problem with it. But the business makes those rules in accordance with the state laws and processes that also enables you to have that CCW. There is no conflict.
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  10. #270
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    I disagree, but I've digressed from the thread's original purpose enough. We'll hash this out some other time.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
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    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

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