View Poll Results: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

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Thread: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

  1. #251
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    from El Galt on slavery at the time of the writing of the US Constitution

    Many nations had already abolished slavery or the slave trade. That list included
    Sweeden, Japan, Poland, Lithuania, Chile, Japan, Russia, Portugal and Scotland among others. I would hardly call that the custom of the day.

    I offered this on the idea of lovers of liberty allowing slavery to be placed in the new Constitution

    It is such a contradiction that - in my opinion - it completely invalidates and negates any claim a person can make to being a lover of liberty or freedom.

    the response for Galt


    No. I am not kidding. The want to advance liberty is not on the backs of a race of people being held in a condition of slavery. To write lofty statements about the equality of man and the equality of all mankind while personally owning slaves and enshrining a system of slavery into the national Constitution is a serious contradiction that goes far beyond mere political hypocrisy. It seriously calls into question the merit of such a label as 'lover of freedom' or 'lover of liberty' and demonstrates why it is hollow at best.

    It is not BS that most modern libertarians have found themselves on the opposite side of a long list of issues advocated by African Americans and the American civil rights community. And I refer to much much more than a single law about a business practice. If you take almost every issue regarding African Americans and the effort to attain full equality, libertarians have been in lockstock with the most right wing of conservatives on them. They certainly come up with loftier reasons then the Bull Conners and George Wallaces of the world - but in the end they come down on the same side as that crowd.

    Affirmative action is but a single item on a much larger list which would include almost every Civil Rights Law from the Sixties through today, laws passed to aid African Americans, and programs aimed at helping them. You mention Ron Paul and I cannot help but think of this hypocrisy in refusing to allocate any monies for medals for Rosa Parks and others claiming there is not any Constitutional language for that expenditure while co-sponsoring and voting for striking of coins to raise money for a private organization - the Boy Scouts at the same time. And there is not language in the US Constitution to allow the printing of coins to raise extra money for a private organization. But he found a way to do it.

    I will grant you the point that one can oppose some affirmative actions programs without being a racist or even a conservative on civil rights. Yes, that is true and liberals also find reasons to oppose it. However, there is a very extensive list of civil rights laws and programs that are opposed by libertarians that go far beyond affirmative action and I believe we both know that.



    The US Supreme Court has heard those arguments and has held that the use of Article I, Section 8, paragraph 18 does indeed come into play and permit these things. Rather than me simply parrot the Court - and do a far less extensive and thorough job in the task - I would recommend that if you want to know those answers you refer to the specific controversy and the SC ruling that approved the programs that you are opposed to. Your objections have been dealt with in the Court for a long time now.

    But we are going astray from the main point here.

    The people who wrote the US Constitution were complex men who harbored a variety of ideologies and opinions about government and other issues. I have no doubt that some of them did harbor ideas that would be in sync with some ideas of some modern libertarians. They also possessed ideas which greatly put them out of sync with the beliefs of modern libertarians - if we take those beliefs at face value. Even so, that does not make them libertarians. That does not make the Constitution a libertarian document. And it certainly does not give license to modern libertarians to claim it as a libertarian work product or any sort of a validation of their current belief system.
    I've already responded to everything you've just said. Why should I waste my time giving you a lengthy response when you only reply to a couple of sentences (and you merely repeat everything you've already said)? Plus, you're notorious for being vague about what civil liberties libertarians oppose. Affirmative Action is not a civil liberty!

    If you're going to respond to this post, please respond to the other points I've made. Especially in regards to FDR, Coolidge, Wilson, and Douglass.

    Also, Sweden didn't fully outlaw slavery until the mid 1800s (be careful where you get your evidence). Japan enslaved millions of people during WW2. Denmark and Norway still had slavery until the 1800s. Portugal still maintained slavery in Africa. Many of the glorious freedom nations you have just mentioned actually continued slavery in their colonies.
    Last edited by Mensch; 11-11-10 at 04:04 PM.

  2. #252
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    How?

    ......
    Have you read the posts in this thread? Your complete misunderstanding of the opening post and apparent lack of knowledge about the contents of many other posts causes me to wonder. Several other posters have discussed this. The idea (that I have no doubt at all that you will dismiss out of hand with ridicule and scorn) is that government will be so reduced and stripped of authority that corporate interests will effectively rule the nation with little to stop them. The big losers will be average working people. Read the thread. It in here.
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  3. #253
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    I've already responded to everything you've just said. Why should I waste my time giving you a lengthy response when you only reply to a couple of sentences (and you merely repeat everything you've already said)? Plus, you're notorious for being vague about what civil liberties libertarians oppose. Affirmative Action is not a civil liberty!

    If you're going to respond to this post, please respond to the other points I've made. Especially in regards to FDR and Coolidge and Wilson.
    Its your time - not mine.

    I don't remember saying that affirmative action was a civil liberty. Why would you then state that it is not with the added emphasis of an exclamation point? Go back and look at the context it was used in please.

    If you feel you have responded - then we are done. That is up to you. I do notice that when you exchange ideas with posters, you state things and then seem to feel that it is the final word on the subject. That is fine. But I do not.
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  4. #254
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Its your time - not mine.

    I don't remember saying that affirmative action was a civil liberty. Why would you then state that it is not with the added emphasis of an exclamation point? Go back and look at the context it was used in please.

    If you feel you have responded - then we are done. That is up to you. I do notice that when you exchange ideas with posters, you state things and then seem to feel that it is the final word on the subject. That is fine. But I do not.
    Again, I don't have time to go on a merry-go-round. I actually edited the last post after you responded to it. So, there's a response to the 'slavery in other countries' point.

    If you don't believe Affirmative Action is a civil liberty, then why do you bring it up in an argument regarding civil liberties? Just because it is something supported by some African-American organizations, it automatically deserves to be included in the civil rights debate? Affirmative Action has nothing to do with civil rights.

    And I'm still waiting for a response regarding the most libertaran president of the 20th century being the staunchest supporter of civil rights for African-Americans when everyone else, including progressives, were content with the racial status quo. I'm still waiting to hear a response regarding FDR. I assume you like FDR or think he has a positive legacy of some sort. But I'm sure you don't prefer to debate his notorious executive order that saw the establishment of concentration camps in America (and if you actually read about the conditions of the camps, some of them were rightfully concentration camps). I won't criticize you for still liking FDR even after he committed gross violations of people's liberties, just like it wouldn't be horrible if I still admired the Founding fathers even if they were slaveowners. Human beings are far more dynamic than a simple good guy-bad guy classification.

  5. #255
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    And so it begins. The usual FDR as Satan or at least his son. And what does FDR have to do with the authors of the Constitution being libertarians? What does FDR have to do with the libertarian record on civil rights?

    Again, for the third time, the affirmative action mention was in connection to making the point to refute your claim that libertarians want such wonderful things for all mankind. In point of fact, they are almost always in opposition to everything the African American civil rights community advocates... and AfAc is just one of those things. If you missed I told you that some reasonable people with solid civil rights records do indeed find fault with AfAct. fine. They have a strong civil rights record which shows they are not a racist or a right winger. But when a libertarian writes essays supporting the South in the Civil War, blasts the 14th Amendment, hates Reconstruction efforts, and opposes almost every 20th century proposal for civil rights laws and programs to help African Americans - it then has to be considered as part of an over all pattern of anti African American stands on important issues.

    Sometimes, people get a pass when their overall record indicates a different picture than one isolated snapshot may indicate. FDR is part of that pass for his terrible actions with Japanese Americans. That is not the case with libertarians and aff-action.
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  6. #256
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Summarize "The Road to Serfdom" as actually spelled out by its author. Can you? You keep using that phrase as though you think it's a zinger.
    Of course it's clear that you think it's a "zinger" along those lines. But this isn't about that. This is about finding out if you even know what it is you're referencing, regardless of how you choose to use it. You think it's a "zinger" because it references something in the modern libertarian lexicon, so let's see if you understand it instead of just sniggering something you have no clue about.
    Last edited by Harshaw; 11-12-10 at 11:05 AM.
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  7. #257
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Have you read the posts in this thread? Your complete misunderstanding of the opening post and apparent lack of knowledge about the contents of many other posts causes me to wonder. Several other posters have discussed this. The idea (that I have no doubt at all that you will dismiss out of hand with ridicule and scorn) is that government will be so reduced and stripped of authority that corporate interests will effectively rule the nation with little to stop them. The big losers will be average working people. Read the thread. It in here.


    In my opinion you and others have addressed no such thing and instead blockages vague attacks on your I'll formed view of libertarianism.

    Please by all means specifically how? Coporate bogeymen is not an answer that holds any intellectual prowess.
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  8. #258
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Of course it's clear that you think it's a "zinger" along those lines. But this isn't about that. This is about finding out if you even know what it is you're referencing, regardless of how you choose to use it. You think it's a "zinger" because it references something in the modern libertarian lexicon, so let's see if you understand it instead of just sniggering something you have no clue about.
    If you want to start a thread on that subject, I will be happy to read what you have to say and perhaps put forth my thoughts.
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  9. #259
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    In my opinion you and others have addressed no such thing and instead blockages vague attacks on your I'll formed view of libertarianism.

    Please by all means specifically how? Coporate bogeymen is not an answer that holds any intellectual prowess.
    This has already been discussed here in other posts. The point has already been put forward that many believe that the one thing standing between a great expansion of corporate power which will hurt average people is a strong government on the side of the people. If libertarians get their way, and government becomes little more than a eunuch in a whore house, then we fear the gap between rich and everyone else will grow at a rapid rate and doom the rest of us to potential serfdom.

    This has already been explained. It is something we fear could well happen in the future.

    btw - are you the Official Von Mises Institute Spokesperson for all thing libertarian on this site? It has been my experience that almost every site has one - all self appointed of course.
    Last edited by haymarket; 11-12-10 at 11:21 AM.
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  10. #260
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    If you want to start a thread on that subject, I will be happy to read what you have to say and perhaps put forth my thoughts.
    That is your canned response every time you don't want to address a point, sure.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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