View Poll Results: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

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  • Yes

    9 16.98%
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    8 15.09%
  • Probably not

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Thread: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

  1. #171
    Voluntary Resignation

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    Cool Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    from coronado



    So what? that is not and never has been the issue. The issue is what corporations are doing to harm America and the American people.
    Yeah, it is the issue. Remember what I asked you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Coronado View Post
    How the hell does a corporation take away your rights without the use of government?
    Try answering that question, as it is basically the heart of the libertarian argument.

    I know you won't, since deflection into the realm of feverish hyperbole is your favored tactic, but I thought I'd point this out to those rational people who may be following along.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Lets look at that list

    Creating industry cabals thus negating any free choice the consumer has except to pay what is demanded.
    That is not done by government. It is done by corporations seeking to dominate and control a market.


    By imposing restrictions on political activity negating ones rights to participate in the democratic process.
    That is not done by government. It is done by corporations and employers.

    Buying elections and politicians with their unreported monies negating the will of the average person and weakening the process that is central and sacred to Americans.
    That is not done by government. It is done by those who serve the corporatists interests.

    By polluting the air , land and water negating my right to life itself.
    That is not done by government. It is done by the polluters/corporations themselves.

    By getting those politicians who they have purchased to adopt laws and policies which injure Americans, which weaken their rights and which further us down the road to becoming a two class society.
    That starts with the corporations and the lobbyists who serve their interests.
    All but one of those would go away if government had less control over the general populace. So, connecting the dots, that is why I asked the question above.

    The pollution example can and frequently is handled using common law nuisance actions, which also fit well within the framework of a run-of-the-mill libertarian idea of government.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    and Coronado...



    You really do not need to use this tone. If you fail to express yourself clearly, I will be sure to let you know. Other than that happening, you can be sure that I am keeping up.
    What, you don't appreciate having the condescending tone you use thrown right back at you? I guess you're just going to have to get used to it, as I will continue addressing you as belligerently as I desire. Deal with it. Or, to use your words, "man up."

  2. #172
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    Has libertarianism ever been tried/implemented anywhere? is it one of those 'not really' things... like... communism?
    Just a couple off the top of my head are, Soroland and Hong Kong.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  3. #173
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Good post Orion. I notice you said this

    Libertarianism would require a change in the culture of responsibility and values of governance.
    I would go even further. It would require a sea change in the way human beings operate on their own and how they relate to each other. It would require a change to basic human nature. Everyone must be changed into being smart, being capable, being talented, being aware of everything around them, being self reliant for almost everything, and being able to take care of themselves in almost every choice they have to make regardless of the information available. In short, they would have to stop being the human beings that we are and become something else entirely.
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  4. #174
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Good post Orion. I notice you said this



    I would go even further. It would require a sea change in the way human beings operate on their own and how they relate to each other. It would require a change to basic human nature. Everyone must be changed into being smart, being capable, being talented, being aware of everything around them, being self reliant for almost everything, and being able to take care of themselves in almost every choice they have to make regardless of the information available. In short, they would have to stop being the human beings that we are and become something else entirely.
    Except, that's not true at all.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  5. #175
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Good post Orion. I notice you said this



    I would go even further. It would require a sea change in the way human beings operate on their own and how they relate to each other. It would require a change to basic human nature. Everyone must be changed into being smart, being capable, being talented, being aware of everything around them, being self reliant for almost everything, and being able to take care of themselves in almost every choice they have to make regardless of the information available. In short, they would have to stop being the human beings that we are and become something else entirely.
    What in the hell gives you the idea that you know what people would have to do to adopt a libertarian governance if you don't even have the first clue of what libertarianism is or how a libertarian government would operate?

    What a joke.

  6. #176
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Good post Orion. I notice you said this



    I would go even further. It would require a sea change in the way human beings operate on their own and how they relate to each other. It would require a change to basic human nature. Everyone must be changed into being smart, being capable, being talented, being aware of everything around them, being self reliant for almost everything, and being able to take care of themselves in almost every choice they have to make regardless of the information available. In short, they would have to stop being the human beings that we are and become something else entirely.


    Nonsense.


    Drop yourself in the middle of the chama forest with 5 of your closest friends and you will naturally revert to a "libertarian society".


    furthermore, you argued before that the libertarian society of our founding fathers was due to population and a farmland society. So are you changing your story now to this argument, or are you trying to suggest they weren't human?
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  7. #177
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    If 1776 was actually a libertarian society ... and I am not saying it was or was not..... maybe the Rev has an idea there

    Good point. and if we ever get back to the exact same conditions, we might give it a try again.

    Let see now, a tiny nation of four million people. Pretty much isolated from most of the world. Most of the nation isolated from most of the rest of the nation. An agrarian system where an educated population was not necessary for most daily functions. Pre industrialization with the massive centralization of wealth and power that went along with it.

    Yes, if we ever return to that time and conditions, it might be something to look at.
    __________________________________________________ _
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  8. #178
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    If 1776 was actually a libertarian society ... and I am not saying it was or was not..... maybe the Rev has an idea there

    Good point. and if we ever get back to the exact same conditions, we might give it a try again.

    Let see now, a tiny nation of four million people. Pretty much isolated from most of the world. Most of the nation isolated from most of the rest of the nation. An agrarian system where an educated population was not necessary for most daily functions. Pre industrialization with the massive centralization of wealth and power that went along with it.

    Yes, if we ever return to that time and conditions, it might be something to look at.
    Now you're moving goal posts.

    A question was asked and he gave an answer.
    It is up to you to prove that it isn't a correct answer.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  9. #179
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    If 1776 was actually a libertarian society ... and I am not saying it was or was not..... maybe the Rev has an idea there

    Good point. and if we ever get back to the exact same conditions, we might give it a try again.

    Let see now, a tiny nation of four million people. Pretty much isolated from most of the world. Most of the nation isolated from most of the rest of the nation. An agrarian system where an educated population was not necessary for most daily functions. Pre industrialization with the massive centralization of wealth and power that went along with it.

    Yes, if we ever return to that time and conditions, it might be something to look at.

    So which is it? You keep changing your position. Once we lock that down, perhaps an intellectual discussion on your part can begin. You are conceding a libertarian society would work under certain conditions, you need to explain with evidence how it would not work in present conditions.

    Please to explain.
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  10. #180
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    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coronado View Post
    What in the hell gives you the idea that you know what people would have to do to adopt a libertarian governance if you don't even have the first clue of what libertarianism is or how a libertarian government would operate?

    What a joke.
    Because libertarianism is a belief system adopted by those who are willing to accept axioms as self evident truisms despite all real world evidence to the contrary.

    And Coronado - why are you so angry with me? Why can't you discuss these ideas calmly and without such ire?
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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