View Poll Results: Is government capable of creating jobs?

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    34 66.67%
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    16 31.37%
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Thread: Can government create jobs?

  1. #61
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    Re: Can government create jobs?

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Wrong user.

    But thanks for admitting you don't have an argument.

    You're the one who is relying upon lies of omission and failing to get the definition of fallacy correct. And you say I can't debate.

    I get it. You can't refute my argument. Thanks. And some advice, research a topic before posting about it. You kind of failed to do that with nuclear power and it was blatantly obvious.
    My apologies on putting the wrong user name, but it's been fixed. I already did research the topic, so maybe you should actually learn how to counter my original argument that the government does not create wealth nor jobs. So far you've failed to counter that as well as the Broken Window fallacy. I get it you can't refute a logical argument.

  2. #62
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    Re: Can government create jobs?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    I already did research the topic
    Uh. Well, if you did, you didn't demonstrate it. Saying that taxpayers fund construction of nuclear plants is flat out wrong for the vast majority of plants built in the world. What governments do is back the loans to incentivize private banks to lend the money. If you did the research, you would know this. There's a thing called "telling" and "showing." You did alot of telling. No showing.

    so maybe you should actually learn how to counter my original argument that the government does not create wealth nor jobs.
    Maybe you should actually address my arguments where I disproved you and how your arguments are reliant upon unprovable counter factuals. You deliberately ignored that portion of my first post. I suspect you know you cannot prove your arguments.

    So far you've failed to counter that as well as the Broken Window fallacy. I get it you can't refute a logical argument.
    That depends on how you define logic. I'm not the one using lies of omission.

    But thanks for admitting you can't refute me.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  3. #63
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    Re: Can government create jobs?

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Uh. Well, if you did, you didn't demonstrate it. Saying that taxpayers fund construction of nuclear plants is flat out wrong for the vast majority of plants built in the world. What governments do is back the loans to incentivize private banks to lend the money. If you did the research, you would know this. There's a thing called "telling" and "showing." You did alot of telling. No showing.
    I've already proven that the government takes money from the taxpayers to pay for the subsidies to build it. It does not have the ability to have capitol. Thank you for playing and losing on this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Maybe you should actually address my arguments where I disproved you and how your arguments are reliant upon unprovable counter factuals. You deliberately ignored that portion of my first post. I suspect you know you cannot prove your arguments.
    I already did address your arguments, but you should stop projecting your inability to address my argument. I've already proven that the government does not create wealth nor jobs. You're the one that keeps comparing the government with a private company, which is an invalid comparison logical fallacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    That depends on how you define logic. I'm not the one using lies of omission.

    But thanks for admitting you can't refute me.
    Thanks for admitting that you cannot refute my original post with the Broken Window fallacy. Since Bastiat had posited it 160 years ago, no one has been able to refute it. Let me repeat that, no one has refuted the Broken Window fallacy since it is the truth. The government cannot create wealth nor jobs. It can only redistribute wealth and impede the growth of jobs. If the government hadn't have interferred as provided in Bastiat's example there would be hundreds of thousands of employees in the private sector creating wealth instead of sucking it away from the taxpayers. In the original parable, the shop keeper has to close his doors due to the government coming in to repair the window. That is a loss in the creation of wealth and the loss of jobs within the shopkeeper's own store. Sure the government took money away from the taxpayers to pay to repair the window, but the overall benefit is nill since it only restored the window to its original condition instead of adding to the overall wealth of the country. Can you refute this? No, you can't since no one else has been able to.
    Last edited by The_Patriot; 11-04-10 at 03:42 AM.

  4. #64
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    Re: Can government create jobs?

    The sad thing is, some of you actually believe 100% that the government in no way shape or form creates jobs. I'll keep it at simple terms that everyone here can understand. It's called the military. Who's job is that destroying?
    "We’re going to close the unproductive tax loopholes that allow some of the truly wealthy to avoid paying their fair share. In theory, some of those loopholes were understandable, but in practice they sometimes made it possible for millionaires to pay nothing, while a bus driver was paying ten percent of his salary, and that’s crazy." -Reagan

  5. #65
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    Re: Can government create jobs?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    I've already proven that the government takes money from the taxpayers to pay for the subsidies to build it.
    Way to ignore my point entirely.

    It does not have the ability to have capitol. Thank you for playing and losing on this point.
    That doesn't prove you understand the industry. Thanks for utterly shooting yourself in the foot there.

    I already did address your arguments
    Pretending they don't exist does not mean you addressed them.

    but you should stop projecting your inability to address my argument. I've already proven that the government does not create wealth nor jobs
    Incorrect. You ran away from my argument showing that it did.

    You're the one that keeps comparing the government with a private company, which is an invalid comparison logical fallacy.
    That would make you a liar. I never argued that the government was a private company. Only that through government demand, such as the military, specific items of wealth can be generated that otherwise would not have been generated, thereby showing that government indeed created wealth were wealth would not have been created otherwise. You never addressed this at all, instead incorrectly calling it a fallacy and then utterly failing to show it was a fallacy. Try again. And this time actually address my argument.

    Thanks for admitting that you cannot refute my original post with the Broken Window fallacy.
    That was never the issue here. Furthermore, that's not even relevant here. The Broken Window theory relies upon destruction. My argument can replace the military with NASA, or NOAA, NIH, or any large science program and the underlying argument stays the same. The military is just one example of wealth generation via government.

    The government cannot create wealth nor jobs.
    Saying that over and over again doesn't make it true when you are running away from posts showing you are wrong.

    It can only redistribute wealth and impede the growth of jobs.
    Okay genius. Tell me, would there be a nuclear power industry without government?

    Can you refute this? No, you can't since no one else has been able to.
    Already did. And that argument is rather pedestrian. You focused too much on the issue of military rather then the issue of funding. Hence why you failed.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  6. #66
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    Re: Can government create jobs?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnWOlin View Post
    The sad thing is, some of you actually believe 100% that the government in no way shape or form creates jobs. I'll keep it at simple terms that everyone here can understand. It's called the military. Who's job is that destroying?
    Or NASA. Or NIH. How many people want to say that the drugs the NIH discovered aren't a form of wealth? That all of the NASA related technology isn't wealth? The problem with people like The_Patriot and others who believe that crazy argument of his is that they will basically ignore everything they do not like to keep their ideological beliefs together. He's literally running away from my argument.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  7. #67
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    Re: Can government create jobs?

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Or NASA. Or NIH. How many people want to say that the drugs the NIH discovered aren't a form of wealth? That all of the NASA related technology isn't wealth? The problem with people like The_Patriot and others who believe that crazy argument of his is that they will basically ignore everything they do not like to keep their ideological beliefs together. He's literally running away from my argument.
    Here's that crazy argument. Let's see you refute it about the military. As far as NASA is concerned, you do realize that private space companies are adding wealth to the country by utilizing its capitol. Who put all the private company satellites into orbit? It sure wasn't Uncle Sugar. It was private companies. Private companies were only allowed into the space race after the government removed its monopoly.

    It is the same with a people as it is with a man. If it wishes to give itself some gratification, it naturally considers whether it is worth what it costs. To a nation, security is the greatest of advantages. If, in order to obtain it, it is necessary to have an army of a hundred thousand men, I have nothing to say against it. It is an enjoyment bought by a sacrifice. Let me not be misunderstood upon the extent of my position. A member of the assembly proposes to disband a hundred thousand men, for the sake of relieving the tax-payers of a hundred millions.

    If we confine ourselves to this answer - "The hundred millions of men, and these hundred millions of money, are indispensable to the national security: it is a sacrifice; but without this sacrifice, France would be torn by factions, or invaded by some foreign power," - I have nothing to object to this argument, which may be true or false in fact, but which theoretically contains nothing which militates against economy. The error begins when the sacrifice itself is said to be an advantage because it profits somebody.

    Now I am very much mistaken if, the moment the author of the proposal has taken his seat, some orator will not rise and say - "Disband a hundred thousand men! do you know what you are saying? What will become of them? Where will they get a living? Don't you know that work is scarce everywhere? That every field is overstocked? Would you turn them out of doors to increase competition, and weigh upon the rate of wages? Just now, when it is a hard matter to live at all, it would be a pretty thing if the State must find bread for a hundred thousand individuals? Consider, besides, that the army consumes wine, clothing, arms - that it promotes the activity of manufactures in garrison towns - that it is, in short, the god-send of innumerable purveyors. Why, any one must tremble at the bare idea of doing away with this immense industrial movement."

    This discourse, it is evident, concludes by voting the maintenance of a hundred thousand soldiers, for reasons drawn from the necessity of the service, and from economical considerations. It is these considerations only that I have to refute.

    A hundred thousand men, costing the tax-payers a hundred millions of money, live and bring to the purveyors as much as a hundred millions can supply. This is that which is seen.

    But, a hundred millions taken from the pockets of the tax-payers, cease to maintain these taxpayers and the purveyors, as far as a hundred millions reach. This is that which is not seen. Now make your calculations. Cast up, and tell me what profit there is for the masses?

  8. #68
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    Re: Can government create jobs?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    Here's that crazy argument. Let's see you refute it about the military. As far as NASA is concerned, you do realize that private space companies are adding wealth to the country by utilizing its capitol. Who put all the private company satellites into orbit? It sure wasn't Uncle Sugar. It was private companies. Private companies were only allowed into the space race after the government removed its monopoly.
    So what about the army is that destroying jobs? Also I love your take on how space travel and NASA works and essentially adimitting that you have no arguement there by saying that other companies are actually messing around with it too.
    "We’re going to close the unproductive tax loopholes that allow some of the truly wealthy to avoid paying their fair share. In theory, some of those loopholes were understandable, but in practice they sometimes made it possible for millionaires to pay nothing, while a bus driver was paying ten percent of his salary, and that’s crazy." -Reagan

  9. #69
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    Re: Can government create jobs?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    Here's that crazy argument. Let's see you refute it about the military.
    Which crazy argument? The ones you regularly make, get refuted and then proclaim to be irrefutable?

    As far as NASA is concerned, you do realize that private space companies are adding wealth to the country by utilizing its capitol.
    Absolutely. They are at the point where private companies can replace government jobs. So much so that Republicans are trying to stop Obama from replacing government jobs in their districts with private firms. But as you go again with another lie of omission, how private companies got to the point where they are now was based on NASA. Without any of that applied materials and expertise, we would not have a thriving private sector space industry. Boeing got to be the #1 leader in orbital insertions because it made many of the parts for NASA. Your arguments are exceptionally dishonest because you cut and paste parts of history that support your views and pretend the rest doesn't exist.

    Who put all the private company satellites into orbit? It sure wasn't Uncle Sugar. It was private companies.
    All? No. Most. But see my earlier point.

    Private companies were only allowed into the space race after the government removed its monopoly.
    Actually Boeing was doing much of the heavy lifting for years. Your grasp of history is appallingly short.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  10. #70
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    Re: Can government create jobs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jucon View Post
    What is the difference?
    The difference would be in "creating". The US Government did not "create" the job of carpenter, for instance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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