View Poll Results: Is government capable of creating jobs?

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Thread: Can government create jobs?

  1. #51
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    Re: Can government create jobs?

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    I don't know how nuclear energy impedes the manufacturing of anything
    Well, if we theoretically assume crowding out, then there are some. But that is speculation. But when we consider the use of nuclear weapons, manufacturing actually expands. Remember that the ICBM has effectively created the foundation for satellite launch capabilities. Without the nuclear warhead, there really isn't a practical use for an ICBM. And satellite launch capabilities has spawned huge numbers of manufacturing jobs. Boeing derives a large percent of its annual revenue from it. Sure we would have gotten there via peaceful space exploration? Probably, but much slower.

    Also nuclear employees structurally require training and education and the systems require infrastructure and support more complex than coal most likely.
    Thus higher quality, higher paying jobs. And industries we have exported. More jobs!
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Can government create jobs?

    And more people to support the structural achievement of those intensely specialized jobs.

  3. #53
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    Re: Can government create jobs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jucon View Post
    I'd prefer the government paid people through the stimulus program by giving people jobs rather than handing out thousands of dollars to poor individuals for doing nothing.

    If everyone got the same amount or if everyone got back an equal percentage of their paid taxes I'd be OK with that, but giving someone that much money just because they are poor would be a perfect example of redistributing the wealth.
    I would to but it isn't sustainable that way.
    The reason there are no jobs is because people aren't spending money.

    To me, the most logical thing to do, is give money to people who spend it the most.
    Job's are sure to follow, but the money has to be significant enough to make it last.

    Facts are that low income people can't hold on to money, they spend it faster than most everyone else.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  4. #54
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    Re: Can government create jobs?

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    I dont know how nuclear energy impedes the manufacturing of anything and of course the domestic workforce is working at the nuclear plant already. Also nuclear employees structurally require training and education and the systems require infrastructure and support more complex than coal most likely.
    How many nuclear power plants are there that were created by the federal government? Not a lot compared to the rest of the world. Also, nuclear power plants are privately owned so it's a non-sequitor since they're already in the private sector. Invalid comparison logical fallacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    And what makes you think that military person would be more of an asset in the private sector?

    Created wealth? Lots.

    Tactical to Practical - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Do you believe that nothing the military uses or has created has commercial applications?
    I was referring specifically to the soldier that was employed by the government. You presented a logical fallacy since the companies that were featured in that show were all private entities and not government owned. The government does not create wealth, so you've presented an invalid comparison logical fallacy. Care to respond to my original post in this thread about the Broken Window?
    Last edited by The_Patriot; 11-04-10 at 01:13 AM.

  5. #55
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    Re: Can government create jobs?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    How many nuclear power plants are there that were created by the federal government? Not a lot compared to the rest of the world.
    Come again? How many nuclear plants were built by only private funding? You do realize that nuclear power is one of the most subsidized industries in the entire world no? France has a socialist approach to its nuclear plants as does Japan. Privately built nuclear power, funded and operated is like a unicorn-pegagus mix. Doesn't exist. Nuclear power does not exist without government backing.

    Also, nuclear power plants are privately owned
    Which has little to do with their actual construction. Furthermore, nuclear plants are some of the most expensively subsidied power sources. Without the kind of kilowatt subsidies nuclear power gets, no one would have invested. It does amuse me watching "less spending less government" people push for more nuclear power considering that it requires more government and more spending to get more private nuclear power.

    so it's a non-sequitor since they're already in the private sector. Invalid comparison logical fallacy.
    It would help if you understood the industry. Which you have demonstrated you don't.

    Still waiting for you to show how this cost manufacturing jobs.

    I we gas referring specifically to the soldier that was employed by the government.
    And you brought up private industry. Thus begging the comparison between the net value that person would create. Fallacy this hardly.

    You presented a logical fallacy since the companies that were featured in that show were all private entities and not government owned.
    How is that a fallacy? The commercialized product came out of military need. By your argument, the military has created no wealth. Except that without the military, we would not have such products. If you are going to call something a fallacy, actually prove it's a fallacy. Not just something you cannot disprove or dislike.

    I pointed out how military spending creates wealth.

    The government does not create wealth
    So all of the commercial products that arose from military aren't wealth?

    so you've presented an invalid comparison logical fallacy. Care to respond to my original post in this thread about the Broken Window?
    The definition of fallacy is not "I don't like that."

    Please use proper definitions next time. Or admit you have no argument.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  6. #56
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    Re: Can government create jobs?

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Come again? How many nuclear plants were built by only private funding? You do realize that nuclear power is one of the most subsidized industries in the entire world no? France has a socialist approach to its nuclear plants as does Japan. Privately built nuclear power, funded and operated is like a unicorn-pegagus mix. Doesn't exist. Nuclear power does not exist without government backing.
    Moving the goal posts I see. Like I said the government does not create wealth and you pointing out the subsidies only shows that it drains wealth from other areas to pay for the subsidy.

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Which has little to do with their actual construction. Furthermore, nuclear plants are some of the most expensively subsidied power sources. Without the kind of kilowatt subsidies nuclear power gets, no one would have invested. It does amuse me watching "less spending less government" people push for more nuclear power considering that it requires more government and more spending to get more private nuclear power.
    Another moving of the goal post. First it was nuclear power now it's the actual construction. Make up your mind on where you want the goal post to be. The money for the construction came from taxpayers which isn't using capitol to create new wealth. It's using already created wealth and transferring it to a drain. How many of those power plants actually make a profit and provide the same amount of jobs as other industries?

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    It would help if you understood the industry. Which you have demonstrated you don't.

    Still waiting for you to show how this cost manufacturing jobs.
    I understand the industry just fine. You don't understand the Broken Window Fallacy. I don't have to show you the manufacturing jobs since I've already stated that other industries could have created wealth while the government does not. I've proven that point quite well.

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    And you brought up private industry. Thus begging the comparison between the net value that person would create. Fallacy this hardly.
    No, you're the one that brought up a private industry to show that the government creates jobs. You used an invalid comparison logical fallacy. A private industry does not =/= government jobs.

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    How is that a fallacy? The commercialized product came out of military need. By your argument, the military has created no wealth. Except that without the military, we would not have such products. If you are going to call something a fallacy, actually prove it's a fallacy. Not just something you cannot disprove or dislike.

    I pointed out how military spending creates wealth.
    The commercial product was the result of a private company using taxpayer funds to create items that have limited applications in the civilian market. You're equating a private industry with the military which is an invalid comparison logical fallacy

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    So all of the commercial products that arose from military aren't wealth?
    It is wealth since the bulk of the money came from the company's own capitol to create said items. Also, the military does not equal a private military contracting company.

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    The definition of fallacy is not "I don't like that."

    Please use proper definitions next time. Or admit you have no argument.
    The definition of an invalid comparison logical fallacy is comparing two or more unlike things. The government is not a private company and a private company is not the government. I suggest that you learn what a logical fallacy is before you lecture someone on their use.
    Last edited by The_Patriot; 11-04-10 at 02:19 AM.

  7. #57
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    Re: Can government create jobs?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    Moving the goal posts I see. Like I said the government does not create wealth and you pointing out the subsidies only shows that it drains wealth from other areas to pay for the subsidy.
    I see you ignored my other post's part on Opportunity cost. Same argument there applies here. Your argument that nuclear power is a bad example because it's privately run is not only ignorant but rather idiotic considering the history. You have once again failed to show how starting the nuclear industry took jobs away. Especially when the nuclear birth was in the Manhattan project. Hint: I'm going to keep pointing out your failure until you admit you are wrong. So save yourself some grief and just admit you are wrong. And there is no goal post moving at all. Your use of fallacies suggests you do not understand what fallacies are.

    Another moving of the goal post.
    You really should learn what that means before using it.

    First it was nuclear power now it's the actual construction.
    It's the same thing.

    Make up your mind on where you want the goal post to be.
    Lack of any decipherable argument on your part does not mean I am using fallacies. The fact you don't understand the topic suggests I was right about your ignorance of the topic. The definition of fallacy is not "I don't like that."

    The money for the construction came from taxpayers which isn't using capitol to create new wealth.
    Once again you demonstrate ignorance of the topic. Rarely does the government actually finance construction. What the government does is guarantee the loans made by private banks to finance the construction. So taxpayers don't pony up the dough. Private banks do. And one again, your argument is reliant upon opportunity costs. My original point to that, the one you ignored still stands.

    It's using already created wealth and transferring it to a drain.
    How is creating new assets a "drain?"

    How many of those power plants actually make a profit and provide the same amount of jobs as other industries?
    Profit pre-subsidies is hard to determine as nuclear power has all sorts of variables that make actual proper accounting profit hard to determine. As for your second point, you are again relying upon opportunity cost.

    I understand the industry just fine.
    Said the guy who argued that the government finances the construction. Really. You expect me to buy that line?

    You don't understand the Broken Window Fallacy.
    I'm sorry. I do not define fallacy as anything I don't like.

    I don't have to show you the manufacturing jobs since I've already stated that other industries could have created wealth while the government does not. I've proven that point quite well.
    Proven is subjective. Opportunity cost arguments are little more then subjective speculation. Actually proving them is another entirely different issue.

    No, you're the one that brought up a private industry to show that the government creates jobs.
    And that is a fallacy how in this context?

    You used an invalid comparison logical fallacy. A private industry does not =/= government jobs.
    Except that significant amounts of research was done in house. Not to mention that without the military demand which is government, there wouldn't be such products. This is only a fallacy to you because you cannot refute it.

    Let's make this real simple.
    Government spending -> Military -> Demand for certain items -> Demand Filled -> Jobs and Wealth.

    See how government created wealth?

    The commercial product was the result of a private company using taxpayer funds to create items that have limited applications in the civilian market.
    And that's a fallacy how here?

    You're equating a private industry with the military which is an invalid comparison logical fallacy
    Except that you completely ignored where that commercial product came from.
    It's amusing how you accuse me of fallacies when you are outright committing lies of omission. This is a discussion about how government can create jobs and you are deliberately eliminating the key part. Without the military, there would be nothing for that private industry to sell to civilians. You have yet to even cite a single fallacy correctly. Once again, fallacy is not defined as something you either have no argument against or do not like.

    It is wealth since the bulk of the money came from the company's own capitol to create said it.
    So government did create wealth! Since SOME of it came from the government, and the incentive to create it came from the government, and the demand came from the government, how did government not at least create part of the wealth? You can give up now.

    Also, the military does not equal a private military contracting company.
    Never said it was. But you are deliberately ignoring that part of the discussion of the origin.

    The definition of an invalid comparison logical fallacy is comparing two or more unlike things.
    But we aren't here. You just dislike how my argument blew holes in your ideology. So much so that you are now using lies of omission to ignore the gaping holes.

    The government is not a private company and a private company is not the government. I suggest that you learn what a logical fallacy is before you lecture someone on their use.
    Let's make this real simple.
    Government spending -> Military -> Demand for certain items -> Demand Filled -> Jobs and Wealth.

    LOL. Please learn what a fallacy is before using it. It is not as you are using it, defined as "anything I dislike/cannot refute"
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  8. #58
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    Re: Can government create jobs?

    Massive bureaucracies don't administrate themselves.

  9. #59
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    Re: Can government create jobs?

    @obvious child: Until you actually counter my original argument regarding the Broken Window fallacy you have lost since I posted first in this thread. I'll take your last post as a concession that you cannot counter my argument. Thank you for showing your ignorance on what a fallacy is and how not to debate.
    Last edited by The_Patriot; 11-04-10 at 03:20 AM.

  10. #60
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    Re: Can government create jobs?

    Wrong user.

    But thanks for admitting you don't have an argument.

    You're the one who is relying upon lies of omission and failing to get the definition of fallacy correct. And you say I can't debate.

    I get it. You can't refute my argument. Thanks. And some advice, research a topic before posting about it. You kind of failed to do that with nuclear power and it was blatantly obvious.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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