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Does Society Act?

Does Society Act?

  • Yes

    Votes: 6 42.9%

  • No

    Votes: 5 35.7%

  • Dick Armey's Pubic Hair

    Votes: 3 21.4%
  • Total voters
    14
Morality Games said:
All concepts and ideas are intellectual constructs. How much bearing they have in reality is determined by how functional they prove in describing an entity.
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The individual is not an intellectual construct. It has a basis in reality.
 
society, not being a unitary entity, is incapable of acting. society as we use it (as a reference to a majority of the individuals within it) is capable of acting via the aggregate actions of those individuals.
 
phattonez said:
The individual is not an intellectual construct. It has a basis in reality.
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Does it? There are many concepts of individuality and at least some of them have to be false constructs. More so than 'society' even. Given the psychological factors that motivate human beings, I find it easier to believe people will act in concert to enforce the law than a single person possesses metaphysical autonomy.

Not that I don't believe metaphysical autonomy exists, but it is much more speculative than a scientific concept like 'society', which describes comparable patterns of behavior among groups.
 
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The idea of society acting is more believable than that of individuals acting?
 
phattonez said:
The idea of society acting is more believable than that of individuals acting?
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Many philosophers have believed that. Partially, because individuals only act with reference to society. "Peer pressure" on a massive scale. Even the criminal disguises his deeds.
 
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Yes, there is peer pressure, but this is due to the sum of individuals acting. And even then, people choose to go with the crowd and fall in with the peer pressure.

Without individuals, there is no society. Without society there are still individuals.
 
phattonez said:
Yes, there is peer pressure, but this is due to the sum of individuals acting. And even then, people choose to go with the crowd and fall in with the peer pressure.

Without individuals, there is no society. Without society there are still individuals.
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In a theoretical "State of Nature." In psycho-biological reality, society is one of the primordial forces that shapes human and cultural evolution. Asserting that individuals exist is trivial when every significant action is based on the presence of the collective. What we speak, what we do, what we think, is influenced by not just other people, but the thought and possibility of other people. Values, beliefs, and actions proceed from communion, not from individual innovation. Even libertarian theories emerged from collective activity and would not have obtained the existence they enjoy otherwise.
 
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Morality Games said:
In a theoretical "State of Nature." In psycho-biological reality, society is one of the primordial forces that shapes human and cultural evolution. Asserting that individuals exist is trivial when every significant action is based on the presence of the collective. What we speak, what we do, what we think, is influenced by not just other people, but the thought and possibility of other people. Values, beliefs, and actions proceed from communion, not from individual innovation. Even libertarian theories emerged from collective activity and would not have obtained the existence they enjoy otherwise.
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This does not change the fact that the individual precedes society. Individuals exist without society, by your own admission, but society cannot exist without individuals. If individuals are not acting, then there is no possible way for society to act. The action, then, lies with the individual and not with society.
 
So when France invades Italy, the whole of France invades it? It is not just the political leaders, the generals, and the soldiers?
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It's silly for the same reason that it's silly to say that numbers "have no basis in reality".
 
Khayembii Communique said:
It's silly for the same reason that it's silly to say that numbers "have no basis in reality".
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But there is no harm in saying that numbers exist. Plenty of harm comes from saying that society acts because it necessarily ignores the fact that individuals exist.
 
But there is no harm in saying that numbers exist. Plenty of harm comes from saying that society acts because it necessarily ignores the fact that individuals exist.
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Society exists, then.

Also, people do act in groups, i.e. socially, so I don't really see what point you're attempting to make with this...
 
Khayembii Communique said:
Society exists, then.
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What is society but a group of individuals? In that respect then, society is just an ideological construct, since the initiation of action lies with the individuals. Studying society is worthless as it does not exist.
 
phattonez said:
What is society but a group of individuals? In that respect then, society is just an ideological construct, since the initiation of action lies with the individuals. Studying society is worthless as it does not exist.
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Of course society is a construct. Which of course means it does exist, it is made up of all the people within it that act as individuals or as groups.

If larger social groups do not exist then the French Army or navy would not exist either
 
phattonez said:
This does not change the fact that the individual precedes society. Individuals exist without society, by your own admission, but society cannot exist without individuals. If individuals are not acting, then there is no possible way for society to act. The action, then, lies with the individual and not with society.
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My last remark on this thread is to be careful what you deduce from metaphysics. Further debate would be sophistry.
 
Any group can act as a collection of individuals. Companies act, society acts, churches act, etc.
 
What is society but a group of individuals? In that respect then, society is just an ideological construct, since the initiation of action lies with the individuals. Studying society is worthless as it does not exist.
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What are individuals but an atom of society? In that respect, then, the individual is just an ideological construct, since the individual is derived from its position in society. Studying the individual is worthless as it does not exist.
 
phattonez said:
But you can't say that the group is acting then, just the individuals.
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Yes I can.

Both the individuals AND the group are acting.

People don't act the same when they are alone as when they know other people will observe their actions.

Thus, actions taken by the individual are influenced by other individuals - And this, you see, is what we call society.
 
megaprogman said:
Any group can act as a collection of individuals. Companies act, society acts, churches act, etc.
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When a church acts, does every member of the church necessarily agree? And doesn't it really mean that certain individuals (such as the priest) are acting?
 
Khayembii Communique said:
What are individuals but an atom of society? In that respect, then, the individual is just an ideological construct, since the individual is derived from its position in society. Studying the individual is worthless as it does not exist.
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You heard it here first. I, as an individual, do not exist. Amazing.
 
The Mark said:
Yes I can.

Both the individuals AND the group are acting.

People don't act the same when they are alone as when they know other people will observe their actions.

Thus, actions taken by the individual are influenced by other individuals - And this, you see, is what we call society.
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Individuals influence individuals, but it is the individual who decides, not the group. The individual chooses and acts. The group does not act unless every individual decides to act.
 
You heard it here first. I, as an individual, do not exist. Amazing.
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Oh come on phatty, you know I was being facetious, and just using your same logical train of thought in the opposite direction to show how absurd your view is.

It's clear where the disconnect here is. You think that people are 100% completely rational human beings, that are essentially omniscient, and thus every action and belief one holds is based on a rational decision. That would certainly lead to the logical conclusion that society does not exist, if of course it weren't for the fact that it's false.
 
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phattonez said:
Individuals influence individuals, but it is the individual who decides, not the group. The individual chooses and acts. The group does not act unless every individual decides to act.
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Well, true.

It is the influence, peer pressure, and so forth that most people think of when saying "society".

“Society” is individuals using their influence and/or power to get other individuals to agree with them - or at least, go along with their plan(s).

Sometimes it’s subtle, sometimes overt. Sometimes ancient, sometimes new – but it’s always there.
 
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