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Federation v Empire

In a war between the Federation and the Empire, who wins?


  • Total voters
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None of your examples show a fleet action at warp....
You arent paying attention. This doesnt matter, and yes, one does.
Your standard here is not just meaningless, but proven false.

You're trying to argue that, for sone reason, even though Federation ships are perfectly capable of engaging both FTL and sub-light enemies while moving FTL, they somehow will not do so when faced with a huge number of very large sub-light targets that cannot shoot at the Fed ships so long as said Fed ships remain at FTL speeds.

This is, on its face, laughable.
 
You arent paying attention. This doesnt matter, and yes, one does.
Your standard here is not just meaningless, but proven false.

You're trying to argue that, for sone reason, even though Federation ships are perfectly capable of engaging both FTL and sub-light enemies while moving FTL, they somehow will not do so when faced with a huge number of very large sub-light targets that cannot shoot at the Fed ships so long as said Fed ships remain at FTL speeds.

This is, on its face, laughable.

Prove it, or your argument, at all levels, is laughable. You have stated that only what is seen on screen is what is being used here, so according to your terms, give me an on screen example of a major fleet battle with on screen warp strafing, with no sub-light involved. Five ships is not a fleet battle. Your non-canon extrapolations need not apply. Seriously, this is pathetic…

…or do you mean to tell me that within a single solar system, filled with celestial bodies and thousands of enemy ships in close proximity, at least one the size of a moon, others about a mile to five miles long, hundreds of your own ships are going to fly at ludicrous speeds between these ships in strafing runs just because they suddenly thought it seemed like the right thing to do, for no apparent reason?

The demolition derby is that way, kiddo. -------------------->
 
on screen:

empire ships were taken out by asteroid/meteor impacts in Empire Strikes Back. The navigational deflectors on Federation vessels are capable of protecting against this.

Federation weapons would cut through Empire shielding like tissue paper...unless you plan to argue than the Empire ships willingly went into an asteroid field with their shields down.

BTW...still waiting on that proof that the 2nd death star had internal shield generators.
 
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This is technically correct. However, Luke's torpedo was guided by the Force. It could have done a triple loop and still gone straight down the shaft.

My take on the whole torpedo/exhaust port bit was that the torpedo only needed to enter the top of the shaft, not travel the whole length - that it would set off whatever was being exhausted from the port, and that would follow the shaft down to the reactor.

Another possibility is that the exhaust shaft was itself shielded in some way that would prevent the torpedo from hitting anything on the way down. I mean, after all, it was an exhaust port from a “hypermatter” reactor, or some such…one would assume that the exhaust would have some unknown properties…

Speaking of which, according to some analysis I read (it was linked in this thread somewhere), an anti-matter reacton would not provide enough power for the death star’s planet destruction shot – unless it used an amount of anti-matter equivalent in size to the death star itself – or some such.
 
No doubt. And to take it out would be difficult. BUT... its clear that the Feds would have an aopportunity to do, given what we see on film. Note too that it doesnt need to be destroyed, just have its main gun disabled.

They would have an opportunity to do so, but it seems doubtful that they would be successful. Disabling the main gun could be possible, but based on what we saw in SW, it seems like that isn't too easy. After all, if it was easier to just take out the main gun than destroy the station, the alliance would have done that.


Yes.. but that was due very much to the fact that the DS could destroy those ships with a single shot. The Feds dont have that issue.

Keep in mind though that the alliance didn't know that the DS2 could target their ships with the superlaser. They made the assumption that they would need to use fighters without knowing it could do that. So that statement must have been based solely on their heavy ships inability to penetrate its shields.

Yeah. My bet is that they cannot. The DS apparently has to be close, and apparently moves rather slowly when not in HS - how long did it take to set up the shot in E4?. Remember that the Feds can ignore anything the Imperials send w/ the DS until the DS is disabled, and so until that point, the DS gets shot at by any and everything in range.

The feds can't ignore everything the imps send with it, unless they want their ships to get shot to hell by the support fleet.

Part of the reason it took so long to set up the shot in E4 was because they had to orbit the planet to get to the moon that was their target. That wouldn't be an issue with an attack on earth. Remember that they were able to hyperspace jump rather close into the planet.
 
the rebels lost a good portion of their fighters because the fighters had to make their way down that ridiculous narrow tunnel. a shuttle with a transporter would not have such limitation. also...the exhaust port was "ray" shielded which was why they had to use torpedo. the rest of the death star was not shielded, as evidenced by the explosions and damage caused by rebel fighters shooting it or crashing into it. so the shuttle would not have to worry about beaming the explosive thru shields.

The 'transporters are the solution to everything' argument has been debunked in this thread before. Transporters are ridiculously easy to block. The empire would very rapidly figure out a way to negate that advantage. Besides, transporters have been shown before to be blocked by thick enough rocks, what makes you think they'd be able to penetrate hundreds of kilometers of armor and hull metal?
 
Luke's shot was BS for SF anyway. no way in hell that torpedo could have entered the shaft, made a 90 degree turn downward and followed the tunnel all the way to the reactor without impacting on any surface and detonating prior to reaching the intended target unless it was somehow guided. completely and totally implausible.

What a ridiculous argument. What we saw happen on-screen takes precedence over your opinion of what is and isn't plausible.
 
Prove it, or your argument, at all levels, is laughable. You have stated that only what is seen on screen is what is being used here, so according to your terms, give me an on screen example of a major fleet battle with on screen warp strafing, with no sub-light involved. Five ships is not a fleet battle. Your non-canon extrapolations need not apply. Seriously, this is pathetic…

…or do you mean to tell me that within a single solar system, filled with celestial bodies and thousands of enemy ships in close proximity, at least one the size of a moon, others about a mile to five miles long, hundreds of your own ships are going to fly at ludicrous speeds between these ships in strafing runs just because they suddenly thought it seemed like the right thing to do, for no apparent reason?

The demolition derby is that way, kiddo. -------------------->
Actually, I would like to comment on this discussion.

There is no proof that Empire ships cannot hit Fed ships while the Fed ships are in the ST universes version of FTL travel - there is only proof that Empire ships cannot hit other SW universe ships while they are in the SW universes version of FTL travel.

Are there any instances of ST ships at impulse firing at and hitting ST ships that were in warp? If so, one would have to assume that Empire ships would have a chance at hitting ST ships in warp, if only by filling the space in front of the ST ships with TL fire and such.
Flack, anyone? :mrgreen:
 
The 'transporters are the solution to everything' argument has been debunked in this thread before. Transporters are ridiculously easy to block. The empire would very rapidly figure out a way to negate that advantage. Besides, transporters have been shown before to be blocked by thick enough rocks, what makes you think they'd be able to penetrate hundreds of kilometers of armor and hull metal?

wouldn't have too, just beam it along the same path the torpedo followed in EP4 and Lando followed in EP6

I am still waiting on someone to show me any proof that the DS has shielding. In both EP4 and 6 the reason the alliance big ships didn't directly attack the DS wasn;t because it was shielded, but because it was too damn big for their weapons to do significant damage. The only reason the DS in EP6 was shielded was due to the shield generator on Endor. The federation is highly unlikely to allow the empire to build shield generators on any of it's planets in order to shield a death star.
 
Actually, I would like to comment on this discussion.

There is no proof that Empire ships cannot hit Fed ships while the Fed ships are in the ST universes version of FTL travel - there is only proof that Empire ships cannot hit other SW universe ships while they are in the SW universes version of FTL travel.

Are there any instances of ST ships at impulse firing at and hitting ST ships that were in warp? If so, one would have to assume that Empire ships would have a chance at hitting ST ships in warp, if only by filling the space in front of the ST ships with TL fire and such.
Flack, anyone? :mrgreen:

both warp and hyperspace are not "normal space" any weapon fired from normal space in an attempt to hit a ship at warp would fail (imagine trying to flip off a light switch and jump into bed before the light goes out). also, there is nowhere for the weapon to draw additional energy to overcome the lightspeed barrier. I suppose the Empire might theoretically be able to equip all their missiles with mini hyperdrives and launch them in the path of incoming Federation ships, IF they could accurately guess the inbound trajectory. However, such missiles would, IMHO, be prohibitively expensive and I doubt the empire would have the resources to generate the sheer mass of missiles required to make such a tactic effective.
 
wouldn't have too, just beam it along the same path the torpedo followed in EP4 and Lando followed in EP6

I am still waiting on someone to show me any proof that the DS has shielding. In both EP4 and 6 the reason the alliance big ships didn't directly attack the DS wasn;t because it was shielded, but because it was too damn big for their weapons to do significant damage. The only reason the DS in EP6 was shielded was due to the shield generator on Endor. The federation is highly unlikely to allow the empire to build shield generators on any of it's planets in order to shield a death star.

Already stated...the second Death Star was NOT completely operational, the main gun was, but not the whole station., hence the ground based shield array. Do you not recall the attacking ships in both Death Star attacks flying through a field on the way to the Death Stars? That's all the proof you should need, but I can happily show you canon technical references of shielding in literature if you'd like to accept them.
 
Already stated...the second Death Star was NOT completely operational, the main gun was, but not the whole station., hence the ground based shield array. Do you not recall the attacking ships in both Death Star attacks flying through a field on the way to the Death Stars? That's all the proof you should need, but I can happily show you canon technical references of shielding in literature if you'd like to accept them.

bull****, the emporer said it was fully armed AND operational. I heard him ON SCREEN, that trumps any "canon tech manual" you can dig up.. FAIL

and IIRC during the attack in EP4 red leader mentioned passing through the DS's magnetic field...not a shield and even if it was a shield...THEY FLEW THROUGH IT.

As I said, the reason the rebels didn't atack the DS directly with their big ships was not because of any shield but because it was so damned big their weapons wouldn't do enough damage to disable it in time. that and they were not manueverable enough to avoid it's main gun.
 
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However, such missiles would, IMHO, be prohibitively expensive and I doubt the empire would have the resources to generate the sheer mass of missiles required to make such a tactic effective.

Are you kidding me? The empire built most of the 2nd death star in a few months. That speaks to an industrial capacity that is several orders of magnitude beyond anything the federation is capable of. Producing a few hyperspace capable missiles wouldn't exactly be a huge chore.

And besides, your supposition that SW ships couldn't fire on federation ships while they are in warp is just that, a supposition. We've never seen them try to on-screen, so we don't know that they can't. The fact that SW ships can't attack each other while in hyperdrive means nothing. Hyperdrive and warp are clearly two very different things.
 
Are you kidding me? The empire built most of the 2nd death star in a few months. That speaks to an industrial capacity that is several orders of magnitude beyond anything the federation is capable of. Producing a few hyperspace capable missiles wouldn't exactly be a huge chore.

And besides, your supposition that SW ships couldn't fire on federation ships while they are in warp is just that, a supposition. We've never seen them try to on-screen, so we don't know that they can't. The fact that SW ships can't attack each other while in hyperdrive means nothing. Hyperdrive and warp are clearly two very different things.

so does that mean that even though we have never seen a fleet of federation vessels attack from warp on-screen it doesn't mean they can't?

as stated earlier, you guys can't have it both ways. you can't argue against the Federation doing something because it hasn't been shown on screen and then argue that the Empire can do something that hasn't been shown on screen. sorry, but it a fair, reasonable debate just doesn't work that way.

the Empire never demonstrated or discussed the capability to attack a ship travelling faster than light.
the empire never demonstrated the capability to even detect/track a ship travelling faster than light without a beacon being attached to its hull. they didn't know the Millenium Falcon was coming until it entered the Alderaan system (ie dropped out of hyperspace) and they could only track them to Yavin because they placed a tracking device on the ship while it was aboard the DS.

the federation has demonstrated the capability to attack targets from light speed
 
Producing a few hyperspace capable missiles wouldn't exactly be a huge chore.

this is so ridiculous I had to address it separately. the number of hyperspace missiles need to successfully blanket all the possible avenues of approach to every empire ship would be astronomical. there wouldn't be enough space aboard to even carry them if they somehow managed the vast resources needed to build them. anywho, nothing demonstrated on screen shows that this would even be feasible for the Empire to attempt.
 
bull****, the emporer said it was fully armed AND operational. I heard him ON SCREEN, that trumps any "canon tech manual" you can dig up.. FAIL

Assuming that’s true and the Emperor wasn’t just exaggerating to impress Luke and enrage him, driving him more towards the dark side, how could it be fully operational in your interpretation of the word if entire sections had not been built yet? Please elaborate. Care to list any other systems on the Death Star that you saw in action? Bottom line, he was speaking about the main gun, as his next statement was an order to “fire.”


and IIRC during the attack in EP4 red leader mentioned passing through the DS's magnetic field...not a shield and even if it was a shield...THEY FLEW THROUGH IT.

Did you miss the part in my post where I said that the weakness with the first Death Star’s shields was that …gasp…fighters could get through it?

As I said, the reason the rebels didn't atack the DS directly with their big ships was not because of any shield but because it was so damned big their weapons wouldn't do enough damage to disable it in time. that and they were not manueverable enough to avoid it's main gun.

This is wrong. Big ships don’t have enough firepower to bring down a Death Star, by fighters do? :rofl: Further, the first Death Star could not possibly have fired its main gun at ships and still been able to shoot at Alderaan. The first superlaser had a very long cycling time in order to fire at full power. This was corrected for the second Death Star, which you see firing much faster. Again, bottom line, the fighters had to be inside the protective shielding to do any damage and larger ships couldn’t get there.

the Empire never demonstrated or discussed the capability to attack a ship travelling faster than light.
the empire never demonstrated the capability to even detect/track a ship travelling faster than light without a beacon being attached to its hull. they didn't know the Millenium Falcon was coming until it entered the Alderaan system (ie dropped out of hyperspace) and they could only track them to Yavin because they placed a tracking device on the ship while it was aboard the DS.

How in ANH did Han know that they had finally lost “those Imperial slugs” if he couldn’t track them in hyperspace? This would seem to imply that there is at least some ability to see things not in normal space.

as stated earlier, you guys can't have it both ways. you can't argue against the Federation doing something because it hasn't been shown on screen and then argue that the Empire can do something that hasn't been shown on screen. sorry, but it a fair, reasonable debate just doesn't work that way.

Apples to oranges. This is not the same in any way. You’re arguing that the Federation would use a tactic which they demonstrably don’t and I’m saying that just because not every technical aspect of the ships were listed ad-infinitum in the movie doesn’t mean they don’t exist. I don’t recall seeing any toilets on board the Enterprise, does the ship not have them?
 
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so does that mean that even though we have never seen a fleet of federation vessels attack from warp on-screen it doesn't mean they can't?

You don't seem to understand my argument. I'm saying that it is stupid to assume that the federation will attack the empire solely from warp, because on-screen evidence shows that the federation mostly fights at sublight speeds. There is clearly a reason for that. Yes, the have the capability to occasionally fire a few shots from warp, but for the most part they do not (or cannot) fight that way.

Look at it like this. The US military has the demonstrated capability to fight wars with nuclear weapons, yet evidence shows that most wars they are involved in are not nuclear conflicts. There are reasons why they don't do so, except in certain circumstances. Just like there are clearly reasons why the federation doesn't fight solely from warp.

I'd also like to address the possible argument that the federation doesn't fight solely from warp because it is not advantageous for them to do so (but it would be if they were fighting the imperials, who presumably couldn't hit them). There are examples of ST universe ships fighting at sublight speeds even in situations where it would be advantageous for them to attack from warp (i.e. when attacking planets, or stations with no warp engines of their own). Clearly, they do not always attack from warp when it is advantageous for them to do so, so there has to be something else going on. The assumption that the federation would attack the empire solely from warp, and that the empire would be completely unable to fight back is extremely erroneous, and unsupported by what we see on-screen.
 
this is so ridiculous I had to address it separately. the number of hyperspace missiles need to successfully blanket all the possible avenues of approach to every empire ship would be astronomical. there wouldn't be enough space aboard to even carry them if they somehow managed the vast resources needed to build them. anywho, nothing demonstrated on screen shows that this would even be feasible for the Empire to attempt.

Why would they need to blanket all possible avenues of approach to every empire ship? Why do you assume that imperial sensors couldn't detect federation ships while in warp and target them?
 
You don't seem to understand my argument. I'm saying that it is stupid to assume that the federation will attack the empire solely from warp, because on-screen evidence shows that the federation mostly fights at sublight speeds. There is clearly a reason for that. Yes, the have the capability to occasionally fire a few shots from warp, but for the most part they do not (or cannot) fight that way.

Look at it like this. The US military has the demonstrated capability to fight wars with nuclear weapons, yet evidence shows that most wars they are involved in are not nuclear conflicts. There are reasons why they don't do so, except in certain circumstances. Just like there are clearly reasons why the federation doesn't fight solely from warp.

I'd also like to address the possible argument that the federation doesn't fight solely from warp because it is not advantageous for them to do so (but it would be if they were fighting the imperials, who presumably couldn't hit them). There are examples of ST universe ships fighting at sublight speeds even in situations where it would be advantageous for them to attack from warp (i.e. when attacking planets, or stations with no warp engines of their own). Clearly, they do not always attack from warp when it is advantageous for them to do so, so there has to be something else going on. The assumption that the federation would attack the empire solely from warp, and that the empire would be completely unable to fight back is extremely erroneous, and unsupported by what we see on-screen.

"You're WRONG! The Federation will automatically see a new threat and uncharacteristically instantly order every single one of their ships to warp because they, in seconds, have determined an enemy's strategy, strengths and weaknesses and have decided this is the best way to counter them! They will also, while navigating at these excessive speeds easily avoid collisions with the enemy warships and each other. Oh, and all their planets and star bases will instantly go to warp too so you can't land invading forces on them. Duh!"


I've tried to explain it to them. We're wasting our collective breath, my friend.
 
By the way, I was pretty sure there was reference to the shields in the movies, I just couldn't place it previously.

Here's the ANH script excerpt:
VOICE OVER DEATH STAR INTERCOM: Clear Bay twenty-three-seven. We are
opening the magnetic field.

INTERIOR: DEATH STAR -- DOCKING BAY 2037.

The pirateship is pulled in through port doors of the Death
Star, coming to rest in a huge hangar. Thirty stormtroopers
stand at attention in a central assembly area.

OFFICER: To your stations!

OFFICER: (to another officer) Come with me.

INTERIOR: DEATH STAR -- HALLWAY.

Stormtroopers run to their posts.

INTERIOR: DEATH STAR -- HANGAR 2037.

A line of stormtroopers march toward the pirateship in
readiness to board it, while other troopers stand with weapons
ready to fire.

OFFICER: Close all outboard shields! Close all outboard shields!

Good enough for ya?
 
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On the heels of the Star Wars v Star Trek poll...

In a war between the Federation and the Empire, who wins?

Obviously the Federation. The Empire can't seem to build anything that some random dirt farming kid can't blow up with an X-Wing.
 
bull****, the emporer said it was fully armed AND operational. I heard him ON SCREEN, that trumps any "canon tech manual" you can dig up.. FAIL

Fully armed and operational was in reference to the main Death Star cannon. When the rebels attacked, it was believed that that main cannon was not yet operational. Which is why they brought their entire fleet to fight there. It wasn't until if fired and blew up one of the rebel capital ships that they realized it was operational in terms of its weaponry. However, it still did not have functioning shields. Which is evident by the necessity to have shield generators on the planet of bastardized Wookies. The rebel alliance could not fly into the second death star to attack the core with that shield generator still up.
 
might have been a reference to 'physical' shields, like doors, as opposed to 'force' shields.

There were no doors on the hangar bay...

...and they referenced opeing a magnetic field at the beginning of the quote, not physical doors, which incidentally is the same magnetic field the fighters had to pass through in order to attack.
 
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Obviously the Federation. The Empire can't seem to build anything that some random dirt farming kid can't blow up with an X-Wing.

Star Destroyers don't require a quirky Scottish mechanic to devise unconventional and effective last-minute solutions to dire problems and tweak their reactor output every few parsecs. ;)
 
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