View Poll Results: In a war between the Federation and the Empire, who wins?

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  • Empire

    22 46.81%
  • Federation

    25 53.19%
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Thread: Federation v Empire

  1. #421
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    How is wanting to discuss something that isn't simply going round in circles again self-serving.
    I was looking at it interms of canon - you know that there all kinds of canon regarding Imperial ground combat, and virtually none for the Feds.
    You;re setting up an argument you know you can win, for the purpose of winning it.

    This is exactly what I'm talking about. Every one of the points you make here is one you've made before.
    Well sure -- they still stand, and so the premise that they support -- that the Feds win - is sound.
    Whenever you try to refute one of the aruments, I defend it. That's how its supposed to work.

    No new ground is being covered in the argument about space warfare. I've presented evidence that I feel clearly negates the federation's ability to fight from warp with impunity, and you have made it clear that you don't find that evidence compelling. It's clear that neither of us is going to change our minds. We can continue rehashing these same points until the cows come home, but frankly, that bores me, and it does nothing to make those points any more or less compelling than they were the first time they were raised.
    Well, if you aren't willing to accept reality
    OK - fair enough. Draw.

    I will make note of one thing you mentioned. I'm perfectly willing to use the 'only what you see pal' style of debate, and leave out any other sources of information (i.e. books, games, etc.) from both franchises. However, limiting the discussion from the ST side to only the original series makes no sense.
    It does... once you consider just how inane anything from TNG on really is. In my world. TNG doesnt exist.
    Its not a matter of picking and choosing, its a matter of the series jumping the shark.
    You might also consider how this applies to SW - expecially the 'game stuff' that we both agree has nothing to support it (like 200GT laser blasts). Like TNG, these things were written by people who havan't a clue.

    Good conversation - thanks a bunch!

  2. #422
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    [LIST=1][*]ST weaponry is not FTL, but any weaponry fired while in warp is already traveling at warp, and thus need not be FTL to catch another FTL ship.[*]ST weaponry is FTL.
    As soon as said launch weapon leaves the warp field of it's host vessel, it drops out of warp, unless it can create it's own warp field, which your typical torpedo can not do.

  3. #423
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    As soon as said launch weapon leaves the warp field of its host vessel, it drops out of warp, unless it can create its own warp field, which your typical torpedo cannot do.
    I think the writers of ST just don't know **** about warp physics, unlike you, obviously...

    Since I've seen ST shows wherein torpedoes were launched from a ship at warp, hitting another ship at warp - It would appear that this "warp field" you speak of has no effect whatsoever on either torpedoes or phasers - seeing as there was no distortion in the phaser fire when it passed outside the "warp field" of the ship, and no apparent change in flight characteristics when the torpedoes passed through this "warp field"...

    So that would seem to indicate that either:
    1. ST weaponry can be either sub-light or FTL when necessary, instantly switching between the two, or.
    2. ST weaponry is not FTL, but somehow is unaffected when it leaves or enters a ship's warp field, or.
    3. ST weaponry is fully FTL, and any seemingly slow speeds are simply due to perspective, or.
    4. The animators/writers of ST are far too lazy to try and research what actual physics would or would not affect imaginary ST weaponry, and thus wrote them as being both sub-light and unaffected by the warp field.

    Personally, I'm leaning towards D.

    But really, judging from the shows I’ve seen of ST, it would seem that either A or B is the case – if you ignore all possible writing errors and assume the ST universe is real, that is.
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  4. #424
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    As soon as said launch weapon leaves the warp field of it's host vessel, it drops out of warp, unless it can create it's own warp field, which your typical torpedo can not do.
    Then explain how a FTL ship, firing photons at FTL target, its able to hit that FTL target.
    The answer: A photon torpedo is, itself, a FTL weapon.

  5. #425
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    I was looking at it interms of canon - you know that there all kinds of canon regarding Imperial ground combat, and virtually none for the Feds.
    You;re setting up an argument you know you can win, for the purpose of winning it.
    Actually, I've never been much more than a casual fan of star trek. I thought maybe that was the case (that the feds had no ground army) but I also thought that perhaps someone who watched the show more would know something that I didn't. If it turns out that they don't, then I agree that there's really nothing to talk about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Well, if you aren't willing to accept reality
    OK - fair enough. Draw.
    Such an outcome is...acceptable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    It does... once you consider just how inane anything from TNG on really is. In my world. TNG doesnt exist.
    Its not a matter of picking and choosing, its a matter of the series jumping the shark.
    You might also consider how this applies to SW - expecially the 'game stuff' that we both agree has nothing to support it (like 200GT laser blasts). Like TNG, these things were written by people who havan't a clue.
    I'm too young to have seen the original series to compare to, so I guess I can't comment on this too much. From what I've heard though, the series from TNG on matched up to Roddenberry's original vision much more closely than TOS did, and that is apparently canon, while the original series is not. I'm not trying to make any points with this, I just found it kind of interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Good conversation - thanks a bunch!
    Indeed. A very amusing break from reality.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

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  6. #426
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Then explain how a FTL ship, firing photons at FTL target, its able to hit that FTL target.
    The answer: A photon torpedo is, itself, a FTL weapon.
    The other possibility is that the warp field is large enough that it extends the distance between one ship and the other, so the weapon never leaves it.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

  7. #427
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Not only does ST have "High intensity particle beams", but those particle beams are capable of being modulated/modified (thus, I think, the "phase") to more easily penetrate (or penetrate at all) defenses that resist them.
    Indeed. Well, some ST weapons display particle beam behavior. Some don't. Like the phasers on the Enterprise D appear to be particle beams as they are continues. But the fire from the Defiant appears to be plasma. Nothing is being fired at the speed of light. You wouldn't need tracking computers if it was a "laser."

    For that matter, I made the point somewhere in this thread (or was it perhaps it’s precursor?) that the Fed ships apparently use “plasma conduits” the way we use wires – to transfer energy from one point to another.
    IMO that doesn't make much sense. Especially considering how control panels are fed by plasma. Sure, propulsion, shields and weapons require large amounts of energy, but control panels? There's alot within bot ST and SW that frankly makes no scientific sense.

    If you want to see a real scientifically based show, watch Babylon 5.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  8. #428
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    I think the writers of ST just don't know **** about warp physics, unlike you, obviously...

    Since I've seen ST shows wherein torpedoes were launched from a ship at warp, hitting another ship at warp - It would appear that this "warp field" you speak of has no effect whatsoever on either torpedoes or phasers - seeing as there was no distortion in the phaser fire when it passed outside the "warp field" of the ship, and no apparent change in flight characteristics when the torpedoes passed through this "warp field"...

    So that would seem to indicate that either:
    1. ST weaponry can be either sub-light or FTL when necessary, instantly switching between the two, or.
    2. ST weaponry is not FTL, but somehow is unaffected when it leaves or enters a ship's warp field, or.
    3. ST weaponry is fully FTL, and any seemingly slow speeds are simply due to perspective, or.
    4. The animators/writers of ST are far too lazy to try and research what actual physics would or would not affect imaginary ST weaponry, and thus wrote them as being both sub-light and unaffected by the warp field.

    Personally, I'm leaning towards D.

    But really, judging from the shows I’ve seen of ST, it would seem that either A or B is the case – if you ignore all possible writing errors and assume the ST universe is real, that is.
    I think you have a point. In the pilot episode of TNG the saucer section of the Enterprise was able to jump to warp with out the drive section. This would mean that warp drives are themselves unnecessary to achieve warp speed.

    Of course, the Dreadnought-class Enterprise was able to achieve warp 13, even though warp 9.99 is as fast as anything could move and the whole universe is your back yard. 'What? we can be anywhere in the universe in the blink of an eye? That's not fast enough!! We need faster-than-instant speed!!'

  9. #429
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Then explain how a FTL ship, firing photons at FTL target, its able to hit that FTL target.
    Bad writers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    The answer: The writers didn't realize what level of geekhood their fan base was and weren't paying attention to the details.
    I couldn't agree more.

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