View Poll Results: In a war between the Federation and the Empire, who wins?

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  • Empire

    22 46.81%
  • Federation

    25 53.19%
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Thread: Federation v Empire

  1. #411
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Random question.
    Where in the "canon" materials are the details on the size of territory the Empire and Federation control?
    There are none that -directly- describe them.
    The Empire is "Galactic", and the galaxy was illustrated at the end of E5.
    However, the "galactic" empire has an 'outer rim' that is not under its control. so it clearly does not considt of the entire galaxy. There are also a significant number of systems that are part of the 'rebellion', which, by definition, do not fall under Imperial control.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 11-05-10 at 02:38 PM.

  2. #412
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    Goobie, I've got a suggestion.
    Assume that the goal of a war between the two is not to obliterate the enemy, but to occupy his worlds and assimilate him into your government. In this type of fight, ground combat will come into play, so why don't we debate who would win a ground war between the federation and empire? At the very least it's something new and interesting to talk about.
    That's a little self-serving, isn't it?

  3. #413
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    There are none that -directly- describe them.
    The Empire is "Galactic", and the galaxy was, presumeably, illustrated at the end of E5.
    However, the "galactic" empire has an 'outer rim' that is not under its control. so it clearly does not considt of the entire galaxy. There are also a significant number of systems that are part of the 'rebellion', which, by definition, do not fall under Imperial control.
    certainly nothing that would indicate the Empire consisted of "millions of systems" as claimed by one of the posters in this thread
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  4. #414
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    certainly nothing that would indicate the Empire consisted of "millions of systems" as claimed by one of the posters in this thread
    There would be billions of planetary systems in the Empire.
    The question, of course, is how many of those billions are strategically significant.

  5. #415
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    There would be billions of planetary systems in the Empire.
    The question, of course, is how many of those billions are strategically significant.
    correction...there would be billions of planetary systems in the galaxy. nothing to indicate that the majority of them are "in the Empire" or even inhabited for that matter.

    calling their group "the galactic empire" for all we know, may be just as inaccurate as calling the SF Giants the "world" champions.

    calling something a galactic empire does not prove that everyone in the galaxy is a part of the empire. just as calling something the "united federation of planets" doesn't prove that everything that is a planet is part of the federation.
    Last edited by OscarB63; 11-05-10 at 02:46 PM.
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  6. #416
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    calling something a galactic empire does not prove that everyone in the galaxy is a part of the empire. just as calling something the "united federation of planets" doesn't prove that everything that is a planet is part of the federation.
    All true - I was giving the benefit of the doubt.

  7. #417
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    That's a little self-serving, isn't it?
    How is wanting to discuss something that isn't simply going round in circles again self-serving. I'm not asking you to concede the argument about space combat, nor am I doing so. I just want to put it on hold and discuss something else. Specifically something which might involve some new ground being covered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    I'm not sure how this does not prove that ST weapons are FTL.
    If the weapon is sub-light, it cannot be used by a FTL ship to engage another FTL ship because either the weapon would fall behind the ship that fired it, the target would outrun the weapon, or both.



    No. It hasn't. Not even close.
    AS clearly illusttated in canon:
    -ST ships can and do fight from warp.
    -SW ships do not have the capability to see/shoot at FTL ships.
    THUS: ST ships CAN engage SW ships from warp, and do so with impunity.



    Arguing the possibility that it exists is meaningless - unless you can show that the capability DOES exist, you cannot use that capability in the argument.


    False premise. All you need is a scene where a ST ships tracks and shoot at a ship in hyperspace.
    None exist. Thus, you cannot show they have the capability.


    False. I have cited examples of ST weapons fire that prove the weapons are FTL.


    None of which have any basis in fact, as defined by canon.
    Citing tactics that cannot exist due to a lack of demonstraed capability doesn't prove anything.


    When you can describe ONE that can be directly supported by canon, let me know.


    No... "what ifs" are graspong for straws.
    If you had a sound argument, you'd not need 'what ifs" to make your point.

    BUT, if you want to use a "what if"...
    Kirk sends the Enterprise back in time with a magazine full of Genesis Torpedoes.
    Kirk then destroys key systems that preclude the Empre form being created.
    Federation wins.
    See how silly 'what ifs' can get?


    DS9. Outside the realm of the dicusson, as are several of your other references.


    Apply some Old Spice, and you'll be OK.
    Until then, support the statement or admit you cannot.


    Again: If you had a sound argument, you'd not need 'what ifs" to make your point.


    One instance is all that's necessary to show capability.



    This doesnt adress the point, it sidesteps it.
    This is exactly what I'm talking about. Every one of the points you make here is one you've made before. No new ground is being covered in the argument about space warfare. I've presented evidence that I feel clearly negates the federation's ability to fight from warp with impunity, and you have made it clear that you don't find that evidence compelling. It's clear that neither of us is going to change our minds. We can continue rehashing these same points until the cows come home, but frankly, that bores me, and it does nothing to make those points any more or less compelling than they were the first time they were raised.

    I will make note of one thing you mentioned. I'm perfectly willing to use the 'only what you see pal' style of debate, and leave out any other sources of information (i.e. books, games, etc.) from both franchises. However, limiting the discussion from the ST side to only the original series makes no sense. The further ST series are every bit as much canon as the original series is, and as such, there is no reason to not include them in the discussion.
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  8. #418
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    certainly nothing that would indicate the Empire consisted of "millions of systems" as claimed by one of the posters in this thread
    I cleared this up once before. There is a direct quote from moff tarkin in ANH that references 'the million systems of the galactic empire'. It is canon that the empire is composed of a million member systems, spread across a significant portion of the galaxy.
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  9. #419
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    this one is a no brainer. the federation easily. IF, you stipulate that what appears on screen trumps all else. the Empire's troops can't shoot for ****. EP4: han, luke and chewie clear a room full of security dudes and disable the automatic weapons without any of them getting hit, luke and Leah exposed on the bridge platform with 5-6 stormtroopers shooting at them and not a single hit, after vader cuts down kenobi Luke stands and randomly picks off random stormtroopers and doesn't get hit by return fire. EP6: an entire garrison of the empire's best troops get their asses kicked by fuzzballs with wooden bows and arrows and flint spears. the jedi are able to block multiple incoming blaster shots., ect. The only on screen example of the Empire's ground troops being even remotely effective was in EP4 when they slaughtered the crawler full of Jawas and EP5 on Hoth when they took out the rebel's shield generator.

    Since most ST is not based around combat..there really aren't many on screen examples of the Federation's ground combat abilitites. but...I have never seen anyone dodge, deflect or block a phaser bolt
    Actually, for the most part, the stormtroopers were highly effective troops. This is especially noticeable in the first scene in ANH where they are boarding the blockade runner, as well as the battle of Hoth. Also note the effectiveness of the clone troopers (the precursor to stormtroopers) in the battle of geonosis.

    Now don't get me wrong, there are a few examples where the stormtroopers were caught with their pants down. The ground battle on Endor is definitely one of them. However, keep in mind a couple of facts. The stormtroopers didn't expect the ewoks to be hostile, and surprise is a force multiplier. They were also pretty badly outnumbered (when the ewoks are counted). It's not uncommon to see a better trained and equipped force be defeated by insurgents who strike from surprise and have a homefield advantage. Read up on the zulu war of the late 1800s if you want a real-life example of something similar to this happening.

    The scene on the DS1 just after kenobi was killed is easy to explain as well. The stormtroopers weren't trying to kill luke/leia/han/etc. Remember that Vader had planted a tracking beacon on the millennium falcon. He wanted them to escape so that they could lead him back to the rebel base on Yavin 4.

    Besides, does the federation even HAVE a ground army?
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  10. #420
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Star Trek. Star Wars weapons are likely to be plasma based where Star Trek appear to be particle based. But then again, Federation power systems don't make any sense. Romulan however, use quantum singularity which in theory has effectively the highest energy generating capacity. Slicing ships in half is far more of an effective weapon then throwing plasma at them. Plasma can be blocked by ceramics. High intensity particle beams just slice right through things.
    Not only does ST have "High intensity particle beams", but those particle beams are capable of being modulated/modified (thus, I think, the "phase") to more easily penetrate (or penetrate at all) defenses that resist them.

    In the later shows, I think "multi-phasic" torpedoes and shields were introduced - for much the same reasons.

    For that matter, I made the point somewhere in this thread (or was it perhaps it’s precursor?) that the Fed ships apparently use “plasma conduits” the way we use wires – to transfer energy from one point to another.

    One would have to assume, then, that they have some little understanding of plasma…
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