View Poll Results: In a war between the Federation and the Empire, who wins?

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  • Empire

    22 46.81%
  • Federation

    25 53.19%
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Thread: Federation v Empire

  1. #401
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    There are scenes where a FTL ship fire a photon and phasers at a ship in front of her - thus, photons and phasers must travel FTL, else they would quickly fall behind the firing ship.
    Not necessarily, since if both are traveling at warp, the weaponry would be traveling at warp also, at the point of launch...Not sure how that would work, it would depend on the specifics of Warp travel, but as demonstrated in the TV series and movies, it would appear that ships at warp CAN fire on each other. Thus, one of the following two cases it true:

    1. ST weaponry is not FTL, but any weaponry fired while in warp is already traveling at warp, and thus need not be FTL to catch another FTL ship.
    2. ST weaponry is FTL.


    IMO, ST weaponry is most likely not FTL, and any instances of a ST ship at impulse firing upon and hitting a ship at warp are simply cases of very good FC.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    This, if even possible, requires fire control that can see the target ship in real time so that you have some hope of guessing where the target will be in the time it takes the weapon to get there - and even then, if the FTL target isn’t approaching the firing ship, no shot is possible.
    Obviously.



    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    As far as that goes - hyperspace precludes everything, including maneuver.
    So it would appear, judging from the movies - and for that matter, all the various material you consider non-canon.

    This is as opposed to ST FTL travel, or "warp", which seemingly does allow maneuver and weapons fire.

    I usually think of SW FTL as a kind of "wormhole" method, or something, whereas ST FTL travel is more of a "warping of space" method (thus, the name warp?).

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    As demonstrated by canon, yes.
    Excellent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    You still run into the FC issue - you cannot target what you cannot see.
    And, in any case, the issue is what the Empire/Feds have, not that they might have later.
    Well, partially. I was considering, at least if the "anti-warp-ship" platform was mostly TL and such, that it might be more along the lines of WWII era AAA (especially in nighttime) - try to guess where the targets are likely to be, and fill that area with a mass of fire.

    And why is it only what the Empire/Feds have at the moment the conflict starts?

    Are you trying to imply that either:
    1. The conflict will be over in so brief a period as to preclude any possibility of further developments, or.
    2. That the Empire/Fed would for some reason cease R/D when the conflict started.


    Because IMO, it seems far more likely that both sides would attempt to adapt their capabilities to the situation, not just keep trying with the same crap, and considering the vast areas involved, it seems unlikely that the conflict would be over in a short time.

    Thus, I was taking into account the apparent abilities of the two sides, and trying to predict what they would do.

    Further, if you step outside your definition of “canon”, you can use this.

    Or this.
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  2. #402
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Phasers, photons, disruptors are all FTL weapons.
    This is clearly not the case. All you have to is watch the show to know it. All star trek weapons quite clearly propagate slower than the speed of light when fired by ships which are not travelling at warp speeds. Photon torpedoes in particular travel quite slowly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    One of my previous cites shows a Klingon cruiser approacing the Enterprise at Warp 9, firing disruptors as she came, and hitting before she arrived.
    This can be easily explained. If, as its name suggests, warp drive works by warping space around the ship (which is scientifically plausible), then it is this warping of space that allows weapons to propagate faster than the speed of light, not any inherent property of the weapons themselves.

    Taking these two facts into account, and if, as you said, it has been shown that stationary ships/stations firing have hit ships travelling at warp speeds, then it is clearly possible for weapons which propagate slower than the speed of light to target ships travelling in warp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    I can only give this answer so many times before reaching the conclusion that you choose to not listen:
    There is absolutely no evidence that Imperial FC and weapn systems have the ability to track or shoot anything moving FTL. If the capability is not demonstrated, then there is no way to argue that it exists.
    And I can only refute your claims so many times before I'm forced to conclude that you aren't listening either. Warp drive and hyperdrive are clearly two very different things. Hyperdrive is also MUCH faster than warp drive. The only thing we can conclude with certainty from the SW movies, is that star wars weapons are unable to fire on ships travelling in hyperspace. Since we have never seen a SW ship try to fire on a ship travelling in warp and be unable to do so, claiming that such a thing is impossible is ridiculous. It is made even more ridiculous by the fact that by your own admission, ST weapons (which clearly propagate slower than the speed of light) are able to attack ships travelling at warp, therefore, it is at least plausible that SW weapons would be able to do the same.

    Your constant claims that ST ships could fight with complete effectiveness from warp and be completely safe from harm, in spite of considerable evidence to the contrary, show how desperate you are for any advantage in this argument, no matter how slight. Cause let's face it, without that, you've got pretty much nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Except, of course, for the Enterprise (and a Bird of Prey) using the gravity well of the sun to slingshot herself back in time...
    These two episodes do appear to contradict each other. I'm not sure how to resolve the issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Aside from the fact is the discussion is about what each side has, not what they could have, if...
    This is ridiculous. This whole discussion is a giant 'what if'. It is ridiculous to assume that in a war that could last decades (or even centuries), that neither side will make any technological advances to try and counter the other side's advantages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    How do you capture ships you cannot shoot at?
    The idea that federation ships could (or would) fight solely from warp and be completely safe from enemy fire while doing so has been thoroughly debunked at this point. However, even if that was true, they could still get ahold of federation technology. There are tons of ways it could be done.

    Raid federation shipyards.
    Plant spies in the federation command structure to steal plans.
    Have the emperor or vader take the knowledge out of the heads of the federation engineers/scientists.
    Capture federation ships which broke down.
    Receive federation technology from defectors.
    Offer a reward for any federation technology which is turned in.

    If the feds are going to win the war, it will take several decades at the very least. The idea that the imperials will not get ahold of ANY federation warp drives during this time is laughable.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Aside from that, the Imperials have a much shorter clock than you think, given that it only takes a single, small Federation ship to destory a system
    The time it would take the federation to win the war isn't defined by the time it would take them to destroy planets. It's defined by the time it would take them to get to those planets in the first place.

    Federation warp drives are SLOW. The whole ST: Voyager series was based on that exact idea. In one of the fist couple episodes, Captain Janeway stated that it would take them 75 years to get home at maximum warp.

    The empire is BIG. It spans the majority of the galaxy and is comprised of around a million inhabited solar systems.

    It would take decades just for federation ships to travel to all of the imperial worlds and destroy them.
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  3. #403
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    [*]ST weaponry is not FTL, but any weaponry fired while in warp is already traveling at warp, and thus need not be FTL to catch another FTL ship.[*]ST weaponry is FTL.[/LIST]
    IMO, ST weaponry is most likely not FTL, and any instances of a ST ship at impulse firing upon and hitting a ship at warp are simply cases of very good FC.
    The only problem with this is, as you allowed for, the way warp travel works. The engines create a warp bubble around the ship. Anything that depends on that bubble for its travel at warp speed - like your postulated sub-light photons - would immediately drop to sub-light once they left the bubble. That these weapons can be fired at other ships, out of one warp bubble and into another, indicates that they must be FTL on their own.

    So it would appear, judging from the movies - and for that matter, all the various material you consider non-canon.
    This is as opposed to ST FTL travel, or "warp", which seemingly does allow maneuver and weapons fire.
    I usually think of SW FTL as a kind of "wormhole" method, or something, whereas ST FTL travel is more of a "warping of space" method (thus, the name warp?).
    Pretty much. This especially so given exterior shots of ships in hyperspace, as seen in various Clone Wars episodes.

    Well, partially. I was considering, at least if the "anti-warp-ship" platform was mostly TL and such, that it might be more along the lines of WWII era AAA (especially in nighttime) - try to guess where the targets are likely to be, and fill that area with a mass of fire.
    The distances involved are several orders of magnitude greater than during the battle of Okinawa.
    Imagine filling a space the size of the moon with fire - how much of the sky does that cover?

    And why is it only what the Empire/Feds have at the moment the conflict starts?
    Because the qualifies is that the canon shows they have/can do.
    I can "OK, well what if the Feds develop..." all day.

  4. #404
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    This is clearly not the case. All you have to is watch the show to know it. All star trek weapons quite clearly propagate slower than the speed of light when fired by ships which are not travelling at warp speeds. Photon torpedoes in particular travel quite slowly....This can be easily explained. If, as its name suggests, warp drive works by warping space around the ship (which is scientifically plausible), then it is this warping of space that allows weapons to propagate faster than the speed of light, not any inherent property of the weapons themselves.
    AS just noted - this works as a theory until they leave the warp bubble, as they must, given that the warp bubble is limited to a relatively small area around the ship.
    For the fire to travel from one FTL ship to another, the fire must pass out of one FTL bubble and into another, necessitating that the fire itself is FTL.
    That they maybe showl to move slowly in some cases in no way netages the fact that they do travel FTL.

    And I can only refute your claims so many times before I'm forced to conclude that you aren't listening either.
    False -- you cannot refute my claims

    Warp drive and hyperdrive are clearly two very different things. Hyperdrive is also MUCH faster than warp drive.
    Yes, and maybe. See below.

    The only thing we can conclude with certainty from the SW movies, is that star wars weapons are unable to fire on ships travelling in hyperspace.
    More importantly that that -- they are neven shown to have any capability to do so, and so it cannot be said that they can.
    Same goes for firing -from- hyperspace, as well.

    Since we have never seen a SW ship try to fire on a ship travelling in warp and be unable to do so, claiming that such a thing is impossible is ridiculous.
    You have that backeards. A lack of example means no example is given; w/o any example, it is impossible to say that they can.
    The discussion revolves around what the cannon shows that they CAN do; absent an example, there's no way to argue it can be done.
    I'm not at all arguing that it is impossible, rather that the capability has not been illustrated and therefore cannot be assumed to exist.
    Thus, if you want to argue that SW ships can fire at FTL targets, you have to show that capability in canon.

    ST weapons (which clearly propagate slower than the speed of light)...
    This has been refuted.

    Your constant claims that ST ships could fight with complete effectiveness from warp and be completely safe from harm, in spite of considerable evidence to the contrary...
    THere -is- no evidence to the contrary.
    That you kjeep pushing forward with unsound arguments only illustrates that you know you have nothing.

    These two episodes do appear to contradict each other. I'm not sure how to resolve the issue.
    That's easy - drop it as a point of argument.

    This is ridiculous. This whole discussion is a giant 'what if'. It is ridiculous to assume that in a war that could last decades (or even centuries), that neither side will make any technological advances to try and counter the other side's advantages.
    As I said -- I can come up with "what if" questions all day long. Gets us nowhere. Thats why the discussion is framed by capabilities illustrated in canon.

    The idea that federation ships could (or would) fight solely from warp and be completely safe from enemy fire while doing so has been thoroughly debunked at this point.
    This statement has absolutely nothing to support it.

    However, even if that was true, they could still get ahold of federation technology. There are tons of ways it could be done.
    More 'what ifs'. Irrelevant.

    The time it would take the federation to win the war isn't defined by the time it would take them to destroy planets. It's defined by the time it would take them to get to those planets in the first place
    STV:
    Enterprise-A transits from Federation space to the center of the galaxy in... how long? Hours? Days? A week?
    Not so slow as you would like to think.
    Also... suppose the Federation starts the war.

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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    AS just noted - this works as a theory until they leave the warp bubble, as they must, given that the warp bubble is limited to a relatively small area around the ship.
    For the fire to travel from one FTL ship to another, the fire must pass out of one FTL bubble and into another, necessitating that the fire itself is FTL.
    That they maybe showl to move slowly in some cases in no way netages the fact that they do travel FTL.
    You're invalidating your own method of argument. You've said yourself that what we see on screen trumps all else. Your statement that warp bubbles only extend so far and that weapons must move FTL because they have to leave the warp bubble at some point is only an assumption on your part. It is blatantly obvious from watching what is on-screen that ST weapons propagate slower than the speed of light, and have never been shown to do otherwise, except when fired by a ship which is already travelling at warp speeds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    False -- you cannot refute my claims
    I've done so multiple times. Your assumption that federation ships will be able to fight from warp in all engagements and be completely safe from enemy fire has been proven wrong. This could possibly be the case during the first few engagements, but will not remain the case for long. This tactic can be countered.


    cYou have that backeards. A lack of example means no example is given; w/o any example, it is impossible to say that they can.
    The discussion revolves around what the cannon shows that they CAN do; absent an example, there's no way to argue it can be done.
    I'm not at all arguing that it is impossible, rather that the capability has not been illustrated and therefore cannot be assumed to exist.
    Thus, if you want to argue that SW ships can fire at FTL targets, you have to show that capability in canon.[/QUOTE]

    I'm not saying that SW ships absolutely could fire on ships in warp, I'm saying that the possibility exists, based on logical assumptions. There can clearly be no example given, because the federation and empire have never coexisted. Neither of us can prove that SW ships do or do not have that capability, and because of that you cannot categorically state that federation ships will be completely safe from harm when travelling at warp speeds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    This has been refuted.
    No, it hasn't. You cannot refute this point without invalidating the terms of the argument that you originally set forth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    THere -is- no evidence to the contrary.
    That you kjeep pushing forward with unsound arguments only illustrates that you know you have nothing.
    This is a ridiculous claim. I've presented a half-dozen or so tactics that the empire could use to counter this strategy. Your inability to accept that fact shows how desperate you are for ANY tiny advantage you can come up with. Face it Goobie, that argument is the ONLY thing the federation has going for it. You can't admit that I'm right because that is tantamount to admitting the federation will lose the war.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    That's easy - drop it as a point of argument.
    Fair enough. As I've pointed out several times, there are plenty of other tactics that will be used to counter federation warp technology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    As I said -- I can come up with "what if" questions all day long. Gets us nowhere. Thats why the discussion is framed by capabilities illustrated in canon.
    Now you're just grasping for straws.

    If we're really just discussing capabilities illustrated in canon, then the discussion is over, because neither side has ever illustrated the capability to come in contact with the other, so there is no war.

    It's perfectly reasonable to look at the capabilities each side has in canon, and expound logically on how they would expand upon those capabilities if they were to go to war.

    In the episode 'once more unto the breech', the enterprise uses some kind of gravity-manipulation technology (I believe they call it an inverse-graviton beam) to prevent enemy ships from going to warp. They don't even use any special technology to do this, it's something worf comes up with off the cuff.

    The empire in star wars also has the ability to manipulate gravity (as evidenced by the fact that their ships have gravity in space, and can lift off the ground with no visible means of propulsion. It is therefore logical to assume that they could pull off a similar trick and use it consistently to prevent federation ships from entering warp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    This statement has absolutely nothing to support it.
    I love the smell of desperation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    More 'what ifs'. Irrelevant.
    As I said before, nothing about this argument is anything but a 'what if'. You're only calling this one invalid because you know it kills the sole advantage your side has.

    And this is, if possible, even less logical than your earlier argument. The idea that the empire and federation could fight a war, and neither side would attempt to learn from and copy the other side's advantageous technology (and be successful at it) is just ludicrous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    STV:
    Enterprise-A transits from Federation space to the center of the galaxy in... how long? Hours? Days? A week?
    Not so slow as you would like to think.
    Sorry, but when it's one instance of fast travel, vs. 172 of slow travel (honestly, it's probably much more than that, I'm only counting the episodes of voyager), I'm forced to assume that the one episode of fast travel is an anomaly. To assume otherwise is stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Also... suppose the Federation starts the war.
    I doubt that would happen. Between the federation and the empire, the empire is much more agressive and warlike. The federation would most likely be in favor of diplomatic relations early on.

    Even if they did though, it wouldn't matter. At most the federation could destroy a few thousand planets in an attempt at a disarming first strike (their fleet is quite small). The empire would still have 990,000 or so left.
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  6. #406
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Random question.

    Where in the "canon" materials are the details on the size of territory the Empire and Federation control?
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  7. #407
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Star Trek. Star Wars weapons are likely to be plasma based where Star Trek appear to be particle based. But then again, Federation power system don't make any sense. Romulan however, use quantum singlarity which in theory has effectively the highest energy generating capacity. Slicing ships in half is far more of an effective weapon then throwing plasma at them. Plasma can be blocked by ceramics. High intensity particle beams just slice right through things.
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Goobie, I've got a suggestion.

    We seem to have reached an impasse in this debate. Neither of us is willing to admit to being wrong, and neither of us has introduced any new points to discuss in the last couple of pages. I don't know about you but I'm going to get kind of bored re-writing the same arguments a couple times a day and reading the same counter-arguments in return. Let's just set the issue of space combat aside for the moment and discuss something else.

    Assume that the goal of a war between the two is not to obliterate the enemy, but to occupy his worlds and assimilate him into your government. In this type of fight, ground combat will come into play, so why don't we debate who would win a ground war between the federation and empire? At the very least it's something new and interesting to talk about.
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  9. #409
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    so why don't we debate who would win a ground war between the federation and empire? At the very least it's something new and interesting to talk about.
    this one is a no brainer. the federation easily. IF, you stipulate that what appears on screen trumps all else. the Empire's troops can't shoot for ****. EP4: han, luke and chewie clear a room full of security dudes and disable the automatic weapons without any of them getting hit, luke and Leah exposed on the bridge platform with 5-6 stormtroopers shooting at them and not a single hit, after vader cuts down kenobi Luke stands and randomly picks off random stormtroopers and doesn't get hit by return fire. EP6: an entire garrison of the empire's best troops get their asses kicked by fuzzballs with wooden bows and arrows and flint spears. the jedi are able to block multiple incoming blaster shots., ect. The only on screen example of the Empire's ground troops being even remotely effective was in EP4 when they slaughtered the crawler full of Jawas and EP5 on Hoth when they took out the rebel's shield generator.

    Since most ST is not based around combat..there really aren't many on screen examples of the Federation's ground combat abilitites. but...I have never seen anyone dodge, deflect or block a phaser bolt
    Last edited by OscarB63; 11-05-10 at 10:16 AM.
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    It is blatantly obvious from watching what is on-screen that ST weapons propagate slower than the speed of light, and have never been shown to do otherwise, except when fired by a ship which is already travelling at warp speeds.
    I'm not sure how this does not prove that ST weapons are FTL.
    If the weapon is sub-light, it cannot be used by a FTL ship to engage another FTL ship because either the weapon would fall behind the ship that fired it, the target would outrun the weapon, or both.


    I've done so multiple times. Your assumption that federation ships will be able to fight from warp in all engagements and be completely safe from enemy fire has been proven wrong.
    No. It hasn't. Not even close.
    AS clearly illusttated in canon:
    -ST ships can and do fight from warp.
    -SW ships do not have the capability to see/shoot at FTL ships.
    THUS: ST ships CAN engage SW ships from warp, and do so with impunity.


    I'm not saying that SW ships absolutely could fire on ships in warp, I'm saying that the possibility exists,
    Arguing the possibility that it exists is meaningless - unless you can show that the capability DOES exist, you cannot use that capability in the argument.

    There can clearly be no example given, because the federation and empire have never coexisted.
    False premise. All you need is a scene where a ST ships tracks and shoot at a ship in hyperspace.
    None exist. Thus, you cannot show they have the capability.

    No, it hasn't. You cannot refute this point without invalidating the terms of the argument that you originally set forth.
    False. I have cited examples of ST weapons fire that prove the weapons are FTL.

    This is a ridiculous claim. I've presented a half-dozen or so tactics that the empire could use to counter this strategy.
    None of which have any basis in fact, as defined by canon.
    Citing tactics that cannot exist due to a lack of demonstraed capability doesn't prove anything.

    Fair enough. As I've pointed out several times, there are plenty of other tactics that will be used to counter federation warp technology.
    When you can describe ONE that can be directly supported by canon, let me know.

    Now you're just grasping for straws.
    No... "what ifs" are graspong for straws.
    If you had a sound argument, you'd not need 'what ifs" to make your point.

    BUT, if you want to use a "what if"...
    Kirk sends the Enterprise back in time with a magazine full of Genesis Torpedoes.
    Kirk then destroys key systems that preclude the Empre form being created.
    Federation wins.
    See how silly 'what ifs' can get?

    In the episode 'once more unto the breech...
    DS9. Outside the realm of the dicusson, as are several of your other references.

    I love the smell of desperation.
    Apply some Old Spice, and you'll be OK.
    Until then, support the statement or admit you cannot.

    As I said before, nothing about this argument is anything but a 'what if'. You're only calling this one invalid because you know it kills the sole advantage your side has.
    Again: If you had a sound argument, you'd not need 'what ifs" to make your point.

    Sorry, but when it's one instance of fast travel...
    One instance is all that's necessary to show capability.


    I doubt that would happen.
    This doesnt adress the point, it sidesteps it.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 11-05-10 at 02:24 PM.

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