View Poll Results: In a war between the Federation and the Empire, who wins?

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  • Empire

    22 46.81%
  • Federation

    25 53.19%
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Thread: Federation v Empire

  1. #391
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    I already gave you examples. Everytime you see more than one Imperial ship they are in relatively close proximity.
    not the same thing. goobie has given you examples of groups of fed ships attacking from warp, which you promptly dismissed because they didn't satisfy your criteria exactly. either you accept goobie's example as valid or you give an example of "thousands of tightly grouped Imperial battle formations".

    it really is that simple
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  2. #392
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I like how heated and serious a debate about a fictional battle between fictional governments has become.
    *sigh* Yeah, I noticed. This topic never ends well on any board it's discussed. Rabid, unyielding opinions on both sides.



    Well, I believe I've said my piece and no opinions are going to change. We've been going in circles for at least the last 15 pages, so I'm going to bow out. The poll says the Federation wins regardless of the debate here and since this is in Polls, I defer to that. Thanks for the fun, gents.
    Last edited by theangryamerican; 11-04-10 at 12:00 AM.
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  3. #393
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Yeah. In the end, I love Star Wars well more than I love Star Trek. But the Federation would wipe the floor with the Empire. The Empire is stupid and ineffective. I mean they got beat by Ewoks. Nuff said.
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  4. #394
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Given the target's inability to manuver and its ability to target the ships while at warp, what advantage is there to fight at warp?
    If you admit that ST weapons can be fired from a stationary target and hit ships which are in warp, why do you assume that SW weapons couldn't do the same thing. While they are clearly different weapons systems, they are both directed-energy weapons and they both propagate slower than the speed of light. If federation weapons could hit targets in warp while not in warp themselves, why couldn't imperial weapons hit targets in warp while not in warp themselves.

    Let's add a couple more things that debunk this myth. Federation ships have been shown to not operate well in large gravity wells (See the episode Relics). It has also been shown that anti-gravity technology can be used to keep a ship from going to warp (see the episode Once more unto the breech). It's likely that, given the length of time it would take the federation to destroy the empire, the empire could find a way to counter a federation ship's ability to go to warp (in fact, outside the movies, such technology already exists, interdictor cruisers).

    Even if they couldn't, the imperials could always capture some federation ships and reverse-engineer their warp drives, so that they could counter the tactic that way.

    Even WITH the assumption that in the initial stages of the war federation ships could attack imperial ships from warp with complete safety, that advantage would be negated eventually, and let's face it, the imperials have plenty of time. Given the speed of federation warp drives, the only way this war will end quickly is if the imperials win.
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  5. #395
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Really, the point is that such a huge ship apparently has extraordinary vulnerabilities.
    The Enterprise, even after taking close range shots thru down shields, from an enemy that knew exactly where to hit her, was able to continue to fight.
    Remember that Ackbar ordered every ship in the rebel fleet to fire on the SSD, and they had quite a few large capital ships. Even then, they were only able to take down the shields over a very small portion of the ship.

    Now granted, the fact that they either A, did not have a backup bridge, or B, it took them long enough for the backup bridge to take control (maybe 30 seconds to a minute) for the ship to maneuver out of control into the death star is a design flaw, but I'd hardly call it an extraordinary vulnerability.
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  6. #396
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    not part of the who is better arguement..but a general question/obseration.

    the empire had the design for the 1st DS in EP2, started construction in EP3 they had just finished it in EP4. assuming that Luke was ~20 years old at the time of EP4, it took the empire around 20 years to build the first death star. EP6 expects us to believe that they were somehow able to build the 2nd death star, which was much larger than the 1st, in only a few months. WTF????

    I understand that in reality it is due to the advances in film/movie/CGI technology from the late 70s, early 80s to the 2000s. but it appears that the Empire and the SW universe in general was more advanced during EPs 1-3 than it was in 4-6.

    That was/is one of my biggest complaints/disappointments with SW. It seems that Lucas et al didn't do a very good job of ensuring that there were no contradictions between events from IV-VI and I-III.


    a couple of glaring examples

    EP6 - Luke and Leah talking, Leah remembers her "real" mother...who died in child birth near the end of EP3
    EP4 - Obi wan appears to be an old man in his 70s when it had only been ~20 years since EP3. He would've had to have been in his 40s/50s at the end of EP3(which he obviously was not) in order to be an old man in EP4.

    Vader aka Annakin SKYWALKER must have suffered severe brain damage to not realize almost immediately that a guy named Luke SKYWALKER from Tatooine, his own home planet, who just happend to be hanging out with his old mentor, Kenobi, was his kid. why did it take him until midway thru EP5 and having the Emporer tell him to make him realize it?
    Last edited by OscarB63; 11-04-10 at 10:04 AM.
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  7. #397
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    If Fed weapons can hit Fed ships in warp, then it would seem at least possible that Imperial ships can hit Fed ships in warp. Especially because there is no indication (as far as I know) that Fed photon torpedoes are FTL in speed...
    There are scenes where a FTL ship fire a photon and phasers at a ship in front of her - thus, photons and phasers must travel FTL, else they would quickly fall behind the firing ship.

    (except in that they hit a ship traveling at warp, but the trajectory could have been planned to place the torpedo on target with where the ship would be)
    This, if even possible, requires fire control that can see the target ship in real time so that you have some hope of guessing where the target will be in the time it takes the weapon to get there - and even then, if the FTL target isnt approacing the firing ship, no shot is possible.

    Further, I would argue that the SW FTL travel method is different from the ST FTL travel method - I think the SW FTL method precludes exchanges of fire.
    As far as that goes - hyperspace precludes everything, including manuver.

    While the ST FTL method (as demonstrated by your statements) allows it.
    As demonstrated by canon, yes.

    If the Fed vs. Empire conflict was prolonged, I could see the Empire designing a ship class specifically as an "anti-warp-ship" platform.
    You still run into the FC issue - you cannot target what you cannot see.
    And, in any case, the issue is what the Empire/Feds have, not that they might have later.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 11-04-10 at 11:40 AM.

  8. #398
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    Prove it.
    At this point, its clear that you're simply trolling.

  9. #399
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    If you admit that ST weapons can be fired from a stationary target and hit ships which are in warp, why do you assume that SW weapons couldn't do the same thing.
    Because stationary ST weapons systems expect to have FTL targets, and have FTL weapons to shoot a them. Imperial systems, stationary or ship-based, do not and do not.

    While they are clearly different weapons systems, they are both directed-energy weapons and they both propagate slower than the speed of light.
    Phasers, photons, disruptors are all FTL weapons. Lasers are not.
    One of my previous cites shows a Klingon cruiser approacing the Enterprise at Warp 9, firing disruptors as she came, and hitting before she arrived.

    If federation weapons could hit targets in warp while not in warp themselves, why couldn't imperial weapons hit targets in warp while not in warp themselves.
    I can only give this answer so many times before reaching the conclusion that you choose to not listen:
    There is absolutely no evidence that Imperial FC and weapn systems have the ability to track or shoot anything moving FTL. If the capability is not demonstrated, then there is no way to argue that it exists.

    Let's add a couple more things that debunk this myth. Federation ships have been shown to not operate well in large gravity wells (See the episode Relics).
    Except, of course, for the Enterprise (and a Bird of Prey) using the gravity well of the sun to slingshot herself back in time...

    Even if they couldn't, the imperials could always capture some federation ships and reverse-engineer their warp drives, so that they could counter the tactic that way.
    Aside from the fact is the discussion is about what each side has, not what they could have, if...
    How do you capture ships you cannot shoot at?

    Even WITH the assumption that in the initial stages of the war federation ships could attack imperial ships from warp with complete safety, that advantage would be negated eventually, and let's face it, the imperials have plenty of time.
    See above.
    Aside from that, the Imperials have a much shorter clock than you think, given that it only takes a single, small Federation ship to destory a systems, which she can do without anyone even knowing she is there.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 11-04-10 at 11:40 AM.

  10. #400
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    Now granted, the fact that they either A, did not have a backup bridge, or B, it took them long enough for the backup bridge to take control (maybe 30 seconds to a minute) for the ship to maneuver out of control into the death star is a design flaw, but I'd hardly call it an extraordinary vulnerability.

    A catastrophic loss from a infintessimally small amount of damage is an extraoridary vulnerability if there ever was one.

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