View Poll Results: In a war between the Federation and the Empire, who wins?

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  • Empire

    22 46.81%
  • Federation

    25 53.19%
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Thread: Federation v Empire

  1. #371
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    as i recall, the rebels didn't know the Empire was expecting them and were surprised to find out that the shield was still up and they were being jammed. hence the frantic "pulling up" of all the ships on attack runs at the DS.
    Yes... so?
    Does this support the idea that they assumed they could not actually get thru the shield?
    I might be missing someting...

  2. #372
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Yes... so?
    Does this support the idea that they assumed they could not actually get thru the shield?
    I might be missing someting...
    It was a particle deflector shield, of course they couldn't physically get through it. It's the same as when on Hoth, they had to destroy the shield generators before they could launch the full ground invasion of the Rebel fortress.

    I always wondered why they never made a shield generator which was inside the shield it generated.
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  3. #373
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Yes... so?
    Does this support the idea that they assumed they could not actually get thru the shield?
    I might be missing someting...
    yeah, if they weren't worried about getting through the shield they wouldn't have sent the crew to destroy the generator on the moon and they wouldn't have **** themselves pulling up when they discovered the shield was still up. none of which proves that the DS2 had independent shield capability.
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  4. #374
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    Actually, in E6, the ground-based shield was taken down before any of the ships, even the fighters, could attack it. It was only the first death star that had shields that fighters could get through but not capital ships.
    Yes. I know. ?

    I covered this a few posts ago.
    YOu did, and your coverage was countered.

    Remember that imperial hyperdrives don't work well in gravity wells.
    Earth has a gravity well - So, it cannot just jump into firing position and open up.
    You're saying that the DS has to jump outside that well and then close at some sub-light velocity - which I agree with, of course - allowing the Fed defenses to react.

    They probably didn't know where in its orbit the moon was
    Hmm - same for earth?
    What if they jump in on the other side of the sun? Whoops.

  5. #375
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Yes... so?
    Does this support the idea that they assumed they could not actually get thru the shield?
    I might be missing someting...
    Here, this should help:

    Deflector shields.

    Particle deflector shields protect a vessel from impacts by high-speed projectiles. The precise mechanisms accomplishing this are presently unknown, but the shields resist or deflect the motion of high-speed particles much more effectively than slow-moving masses. For instance a space station may maintain its protection whilst slow-moving freighter craft are free to approach and dock and enemy fighters fly through with little impedence. This velocity-dependent behaviour of deflectors seems similar to the action of a magnetic field on charged particles, which explains why some spacers to colloquially refer to deflectors as "magnetic shields". The existence of any real connection between deflectors and genuine magnetic phenomena is doubtful, because deflectors have the distinction of acting on uncharged objects. The most powerful deflectors, such as the security shield at Endor or the defense shields of major civilised planets, are able to block the passage of objects moving at almost any appreciable speed. This has disasterous results for any craft which unwittingly collides with the field. Starfighters entering the deflectors of a Death Star might experience slight resistence whereas high-velocity missiles would be seriously perturbed.

    Deflectors are not effective against indefinitely violent impacts. The energy absorbed by the field when the projectile is deccelerated must be dissipated by the shield generator sustaining it. These generators have limits to their maximum rate of power dissipation and total absorptive capacity for any one impact. The quality rating of a shield system determines its effectiveness and the magnitude of this shield failure point. The Death Stars possessed deflector shields of immense power by comparison to those of capital starships, though much weaker than many ground-based deflector systems. The huge power demands of the superlaser and other key functions of the Death Stars prevented the implementation of comparably impressive deflectors.

    The particle deflector shields of the first Death Star were easily able to withstand the impact of the debris from the explosion of Alderaan. According to the A New Hope novel the Death Star was at a distance of approximately six planetary diameters when the explosion took place, which is approximately 75000km. As discussed above, the amount of energy deliverd to the planet was very much greater than its gravitational binding energy. Consequently most of the injected energy would have come out again in the form of kinetic energy of the debris. Assuming that the explosion was even in all directions, the fraction of this energy incident on the Death Star is the ratio of the battle station's crossectional area to the surface area of the 75000km-radius sphere. If the Death Star was only 120km in diameter the fraction is about 1.6 x 10-7. Thus the absorptive capacity of the particle deflector shields is comfortably greater than a number which is itself very much in excess of:

    S > (I-U)/U 1026 Joules

    where I is the amount of energy injected by the superlaser, U is the magnitude of the gravitational binding energy of Alderaan. The actual value of I is probably greater than U by a factor of tens of thousands.


    Holographic schematic showing the circulations of the security deflector shield projected from the sanctuary moon. Note that it only encloses a small geographical region of the moon, which is nonetheless wider than the prominent dish seen on the ground later in the movie.

    Atmosphere containment shields.

    The apertures of deep-space docking bays, such as those of the Death Stars, are sealed against the vacuum by a specialised adaption of deflector technology. A weak deflector field produced by a ring generator around the opening is tuned to cause back-scattering of impacts with velocities and energies typical of the gas molecules of a warm and habitable atmosphere. In this way large objects are able to fly through the bay entrance whilst most of the air is retained inside.

    The shields are obviously too weak to appreciably affect the passage of a starship. In A New Hope and Return of the Jedi we witness the Millennium Falcon and several shuttles pass through the atmosphere containment shields of docking bays. The rebel fugitives in the freighter met little resistence from the shield during their hasty takeoff several hours later.

    It is possible that the passage of a ship temporarily undermines the integrity of the containment. In A New Hope the flight controllers cleared and evacuated the Millennium Falcon's docking bay before reeling it inside. When Lord Vader's shuttle arrived in Return of the Jeci its bay was clear of personnel until after landing. (The stormtroopers paraded in after landing but before the Dark Lord disembarked. We don't know whether the Emperor's arrival proceeded similarly because we never saw the actual moment of touchdown.) The clearance procedure may be a routine precaution to avoid danger to people within the docking bay.

    On the other hand the clearance might simply be intended to allow the starship pilot to land without fear of squashing or irradiating any stray people. In this case the we don't need to postulate any loss of atmospheric containment integrity during the passage of large objects.

    Lighting around the aperture of a hangar indicates but does not seem to be necessary for the operation of the atmospheric containment field. Although all of the Death Star hangars seen to date have a complete illuminated ring, at least two of the hangars of Lord Vader's Executor warship have light rings which are interrupted at some points. (See Executor for more information.) The lighting most probably is a warning to humans and droids that they should not walk near or beyond that point of the deck.

    Energy shielding.

    Sometimes termed "ray shielding", these devices have an absorptive effect on radiation and beam attacks of a massless or nearly-massless nature. Energy shields are used to dampen the potential damage of blaster hits. As with particle deflector shields, energy shield generators have maximum dissipative power ratings. The energy shields of the vulnerable exhaust port on Death Star I prevented rebel starfighters from making simple laser cannon attacks. The quality of energy shields are combined with the quality of deflector shields to give the overall shield rating which is used in roleplaying game statistics.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  6. #376
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    yeah, if they weren't worried about getting through the shield they wouldn't have sent the crew to destroy the generator on the moon and they wouldn't have **** themselves pulling up when they discovered the shield was still up. none of which proves that the DS2 had independent shield capability.
    They weren't worried about getting thru the shield, they were worried about getting thru the shield before the defenses could push them away - if you know the other side cannot shoot back, you dont care how long it takes to drop the shield; defenses put a time limit on how long you have to inflict the necessary damage, and so if you believe there is a time limit, you must have some expectation of a defense capable of pushing you back.

    So, they expected a fight of some sort - sending the force they did indicates that they espected that fight to be stiff.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 11-03-10 at 10:35 PM.

  7. #377
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    There is no evidence to the contrary.
    Ther is absolutely NO support for the argument that ST ships --must-- slow to sub-light before fighting, either singly or in groups, regardless of the speed of the targets.
    There is indisputible evidence that ST ships CAN engage these targets from FTL.
    I'm sorry -- you're just done.
    The burden is on you to prove that the Federation uses warp in any major fleet engagement, since that’s what we’re specifically discussing. You have failed to do so. Please read before replying. At no point did I dispute your ability to fire from warp.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    There's no evidence to support this.
    127 INT REBEL STAR CRUISER - BRIDGE 127

    ACKBAR
    We've got to give those fighters more time.
    Concentrate all fire on that Super Star
    Destroyer.


    X-wings pilots head across the surface of the huge battleship.

    128 INT VADER'S STAR DESTROYER - BRIDGE 128

    Admiral Piett and a commander stand at the window, looking out to
    the battle. They look concerned.

    CONTROLLER
    Sir, we've lost our bridge deflector shield.

    PIETT
    Intensify the forward batteries. I don't want
    anything to get through.


    The commander is looking out of the window where a damaged Rebel
    fighter is out of control and heading directly toward the bridge.

    PIETT
    Intensify forward firepower!

    COMMANDER
    It's too late!

    The Rebel pilot screams as his ship hits the Star Destroyer,
    causing a huge explosion. The giant battle ship loses control,
    crashes into the Death Star, and explodes.
    Proven wrong. Next.
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  8. #378
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    The burden is on you to prove that the Federation uses warp in any major fleet engagement...
    No. Its not. The only question is the capability to fire from FTL at FTL/non-FTL targets, which has been wholly deomstrated, as you admit.

    The standard you want to inteject here is meaningless, and, because of its nature, will continue to be meaningless, no matter how many times you try to interject it.

  9. #379
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    No. Its not. The only question is the capability to fire from FTL at FTL/non-FTL targets, which has been wholly deomstrated, as you admit.

    The standard you want to inteject here is meaningless, and, because of its nature, will continue to be meaningless, no matter how many times you try to interject it.
    A wholly inadequate dismissal. I'm not arguing with your ability to use your precious, mystical warp cure-all.

    I'm arguing this:
    I understand that they can make "minor variations" but I'm referring to the logistics of coordinating simultaneous warp jumps with hundreds of Federation starships (I assume they have that many at least) moving on multiple attack vectors, executing hard turns through thousands of tightly grouped Imperial battle formations without dropping to sub-light at all and thereby exposing themselves to return fire. Could they do it it? Possibly. My argument was that since they have never demonstrated that tactic on a large scale under those circumstances before, they'd be unlikely to suddenly change their standard tactics of engagement in favor of something so risky without knowing a lot more about their opponents.
    This is certainly not meaningless as it determines the entire context the battle would be fought under.

    Address NAO!!!!!
    Last edited by theangryamerican; 11-03-10 at 10:56 PM.
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  10. #380
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    A wholly inadequate dismisal.
    The standard you want to inteject here is meaningless, and, because of its nature, will continue to be meaningless, no matter how many times you try to interject it.

    I'm not arguing with your ability to use your precious, mystical warp cure-all.
    You say that like its inconsequential.
    You might as well be arguing that while a platoon of M1A2 can utterly destory an entire Roman legion w/o any harm to itself, the advantage given by the M1s can be ignored.

    I'm referring to the logistics of coordinating simultaneous warp jumps with hundreds of Federation starships
    This denotes a lack uf understanding. There are no warp jumps to coordinate -- there is warp-speed combat manuver to coordinate, which has been demonstrated.
    That Star Fleet is a FLEET with a command structure, illustrated in FTL combat to the squadron level - indicates an ability to corrdinate fleets of ships in battle. It is, after all, their purpose...

    ...executing hard turns through thousands of tightly grouped Imperial battle formations...
    False premise. There's no deomstrable need fer the Fed ships to get inside Imperial formations.
    Imperials may fight like wet-navy ships of the line, but that's forced by their limited naval technology.

    My argument was that since they have never demonstrated that tactic on a large scale...
    Is meaningless, given your false premise and obvious lack of understanding of the issue.

    they'd be unlikely to suddenly change their standard tactics of engagement..
    Aside from the fact that you have not shown this to be a standard tactic... in fact, the only even remotely relevant canon shows that they ARE able to coordinate the efforts of at least a squadron in FTL combat against a FTL opponent... they would be CERTAIN to change their supposed 'standard tactic' if it meant they could engage the enemy w/o any chance of taking damage - which it unquestionably does.

    Let me repeat that:
    They would be CERTAIN to change their supposed 'standard tactic' if it meant they could fully engage the enemy w/o any chance of taking damage - which it unquestionably does.

    Refute that.

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