View Poll Results: In a war between the Federation and the Empire, who wins?

Voters
47. You may not vote on this poll
  • Empire

    22 46.81%
  • Federation

    25 53.19%
Page 32 of 43 FirstFirst ... 22303132333442 ... LastLast
Results 311 to 320 of 429

Thread: Federation v Empire

  1. #311
    Can't stop the signal...
    theangryamerican's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    The Wild West
    Last Seen
    07-29-13 @ 11:50 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    2,233

    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    wouldn't have too, just beam it along the same path the torpedo followed in EP4 and Lando followed in EP6

    I am still waiting on someone to show me any proof that the DS has shielding. In both EP4 and 6 the reason the alliance big ships didn't directly attack the DS wasn;t because it was shielded, but because it was too damn big for their weapons to do significant damage. The only reason the DS in EP6 was shielded was due to the shield generator on Endor. The federation is highly unlikely to allow the empire to build shield generators on any of it's planets in order to shield a death star.
    Already stated...the second Death Star was NOT completely operational, the main gun was, but not the whole station., hence the ground based shield array. Do you not recall the attacking ships in both Death Star attacks flying through a field on the way to the Death Stars? That's all the proof you should need, but I can happily show you canon technical references of shielding in literature if you'd like to accept them.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

  2. #312
    Farts in Elevators
    OscarB63's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Alabama
    Last Seen
    09-06-14 @ 07:26 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    26,526

    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    Already stated...the second Death Star was NOT completely operational, the main gun was, but not the whole station., hence the ground based shield array. Do you not recall the attacking ships in both Death Star attacks flying through a field on the way to the Death Stars? That's all the proof you should need, but I can happily show you canon technical references of shielding in literature if you'd like to accept them.
    bull****, the emporer said it was fully armed AND operational. I heard him ON SCREEN, that trumps any "canon tech manual" you can dig up.. FAIL

    and IIRC during the attack in EP4 red leader mentioned passing through the DS's magnetic field...not a shield and even if it was a shield...THEY FLEW THROUGH IT.

    As I said, the reason the rebels didn't atack the DS directly with their big ships was not because of any shield but because it was so damned big their weapons wouldn't do enough damage to disable it in time. that and they were not manueverable enough to avoid it's main gun.
    Last edited by OscarB63; 11-03-10 at 06:41 PM.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

  3. #313
    Anti-Hypocrite
    molten_dragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Southeast Michigan
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:22 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Liberal
    Posts
    9,351

    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    However, such missiles would, IMHO, be prohibitively expensive and I doubt the empire would have the resources to generate the sheer mass of missiles required to make such a tactic effective.
    Are you kidding me? The empire built most of the 2nd death star in a few months. That speaks to an industrial capacity that is several orders of magnitude beyond anything the federation is capable of. Producing a few hyperspace capable missiles wouldn't exactly be a huge chore.

    And besides, your supposition that SW ships couldn't fire on federation ships while they are in warp is just that, a supposition. We've never seen them try to on-screen, so we don't know that they can't. The fact that SW ships can't attack each other while in hyperdrive means nothing. Hyperdrive and warp are clearly two very different things.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

  4. #314
    Farts in Elevators
    OscarB63's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Alabama
    Last Seen
    09-06-14 @ 07:26 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    26,526

    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    Are you kidding me? The empire built most of the 2nd death star in a few months. That speaks to an industrial capacity that is several orders of magnitude beyond anything the federation is capable of. Producing a few hyperspace capable missiles wouldn't exactly be a huge chore.

    And besides, your supposition that SW ships couldn't fire on federation ships while they are in warp is just that, a supposition. We've never seen them try to on-screen, so we don't know that they can't. The fact that SW ships can't attack each other while in hyperdrive means nothing. Hyperdrive and warp are clearly two very different things.
    so does that mean that even though we have never seen a fleet of federation vessels attack from warp on-screen it doesn't mean they can't?

    as stated earlier, you guys can't have it both ways. you can't argue against the Federation doing something because it hasn't been shown on screen and then argue that the Empire can do something that hasn't been shown on screen. sorry, but it a fair, reasonable debate just doesn't work that way.

    the Empire never demonstrated or discussed the capability to attack a ship travelling faster than light.
    the empire never demonstrated the capability to even detect/track a ship travelling faster than light without a beacon being attached to its hull. they didn't know the Millenium Falcon was coming until it entered the Alderaan system (ie dropped out of hyperspace) and they could only track them to Yavin because they placed a tracking device on the ship while it was aboard the DS.

    the federation has demonstrated the capability to attack targets from light speed
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

  5. #315
    Farts in Elevators
    OscarB63's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Alabama
    Last Seen
    09-06-14 @ 07:26 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    26,526

    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    Producing a few hyperspace capable missiles wouldn't exactly be a huge chore.
    this is so ridiculous I had to address it separately. the number of hyperspace missiles need to successfully blanket all the possible avenues of approach to every empire ship would be astronomical. there wouldn't be enough space aboard to even carry them if they somehow managed the vast resources needed to build them. anywho, nothing demonstrated on screen shows that this would even be feasible for the Empire to attempt.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

  6. #316
    Can't stop the signal...
    theangryamerican's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    The Wild West
    Last Seen
    07-29-13 @ 11:50 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    2,233

    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    bull****, the emporer said it was fully armed AND operational. I heard him ON SCREEN, that trumps any "canon tech manual" you can dig up.. FAIL
    Assuming that’s true and the Emperor wasn’t just exaggerating to impress Luke and enrage him, driving him more towards the dark side, how could it be fully operational in your interpretation of the word if entire sections had not been built yet? Please elaborate. Care to list any other systems on the Death Star that you saw in action? Bottom line, he was speaking about the main gun, as his next statement was an order to “fire.”


    and IIRC during the attack in EP4 red leader mentioned passing through the DS's magnetic field...not a shield and even if it was a shield...THEY FLEW THROUGH IT.
    Did you miss the part in my post where I said that the weakness with the first Death Star’s shields was that …gasp…fighters could get through it?

    As I said, the reason the rebels didn't atack the DS directly with their big ships was not because of any shield but because it was so damned big their weapons wouldn't do enough damage to disable it in time. that and they were not manueverable enough to avoid it's main gun.
    This is wrong. Big ships don’t have enough firepower to bring down a Death Star, by fighters do? : Further, the first Death Star could not possibly have fired its main gun at ships and still been able to shoot at Alderaan. The first superlaser had a very long cycling time in order to fire at full power. This was corrected for the second Death Star, which you see firing much faster. Again, bottom line, the fighters had to be inside the protective shielding to do any damage and larger ships couldn’t get there.

    the Empire never demonstrated or discussed the capability to attack a ship travelling faster than light.
    the empire never demonstrated the capability to even detect/track a ship travelling faster than light without a beacon being attached to its hull. they didn't know the Millenium Falcon was coming until it entered the Alderaan system (ie dropped out of hyperspace) and they could only track them to Yavin because they placed a tracking device on the ship while it was aboard the DS.
    How in ANH did Han know that they had finally lost “those Imperial slugs” if he couldn’t track them in hyperspace? This would seem to imply that there is at least some ability to see things not in normal space.

    as stated earlier, you guys can't have it both ways. you can't argue against the Federation doing something because it hasn't been shown on screen and then argue that the Empire can do something that hasn't been shown on screen. sorry, but it a fair, reasonable debate just doesn't work that way.
    Apples to oranges. This is not the same in any way. You’re arguing that the Federation would use a tactic which they demonstrably don’t and I’m saying that just because not every technical aspect of the ships were listed ad-infinitum in the movie doesn’t mean they don’t exist. I don’t recall seeing any toilets on board the Enterprise, does the ship not have them?
    Last edited by theangryamerican; 11-03-10 at 07:22 PM.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

  7. #317
    Anti-Hypocrite
    molten_dragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Southeast Michigan
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:22 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Liberal
    Posts
    9,351

    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    so does that mean that even though we have never seen a fleet of federation vessels attack from warp on-screen it doesn't mean they can't?
    You don't seem to understand my argument. I'm saying that it is stupid to assume that the federation will attack the empire solely from warp, because on-screen evidence shows that the federation mostly fights at sublight speeds. There is clearly a reason for that. Yes, the have the capability to occasionally fire a few shots from warp, but for the most part they do not (or cannot) fight that way.

    Look at it like this. The US military has the demonstrated capability to fight wars with nuclear weapons, yet evidence shows that most wars they are involved in are not nuclear conflicts. There are reasons why they don't do so, except in certain circumstances. Just like there are clearly reasons why the federation doesn't fight solely from warp.

    I'd also like to address the possible argument that the federation doesn't fight solely from warp because it is not advantageous for them to do so (but it would be if they were fighting the imperials, who presumably couldn't hit them). There are examples of ST universe ships fighting at sublight speeds even in situations where it would be advantageous for them to attack from warp (i.e. when attacking planets, or stations with no warp engines of their own). Clearly, they do not always attack from warp when it is advantageous for them to do so, so there has to be something else going on. The assumption that the federation would attack the empire solely from warp, and that the empire would be completely unable to fight back is extremely erroneous, and unsupported by what we see on-screen.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

  8. #318
    Anti-Hypocrite
    molten_dragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Southeast Michigan
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:22 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Liberal
    Posts
    9,351

    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    this is so ridiculous I had to address it separately. the number of hyperspace missiles need to successfully blanket all the possible avenues of approach to every empire ship would be astronomical. there wouldn't be enough space aboard to even carry them if they somehow managed the vast resources needed to build them. anywho, nothing demonstrated on screen shows that this would even be feasible for the Empire to attempt.
    Why would they need to blanket all possible avenues of approach to every empire ship? Why do you assume that imperial sensors couldn't detect federation ships while in warp and target them?
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

  9. #319
    Can't stop the signal...
    theangryamerican's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    The Wild West
    Last Seen
    07-29-13 @ 11:50 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    2,233

    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    You don't seem to understand my argument. I'm saying that it is stupid to assume that the federation will attack the empire solely from warp, because on-screen evidence shows that the federation mostly fights at sublight speeds. There is clearly a reason for that. Yes, the have the capability to occasionally fire a few shots from warp, but for the most part they do not (or cannot) fight that way.

    Look at it like this. The US military has the demonstrated capability to fight wars with nuclear weapons, yet evidence shows that most wars they are involved in are not nuclear conflicts. There are reasons why they don't do so, except in certain circumstances. Just like there are clearly reasons why the federation doesn't fight solely from warp.

    I'd also like to address the possible argument that the federation doesn't fight solely from warp because it is not advantageous for them to do so (but it would be if they were fighting the imperials, who presumably couldn't hit them). There are examples of ST universe ships fighting at sublight speeds even in situations where it would be advantageous for them to attack from warp (i.e. when attacking planets, or stations with no warp engines of their own). Clearly, they do not always attack from warp when it is advantageous for them to do so, so there has to be something else going on. The assumption that the federation would attack the empire solely from warp, and that the empire would be completely unable to fight back is extremely erroneous, and unsupported by what we see on-screen.
    "You're WRONG! The Federation will automatically see a new threat and uncharacteristically instantly order every single one of their ships to warp because they, in seconds, have determined an enemy's strategy, strengths and weaknesses and have decided this is the best way to counter them! They will also, while navigating at these excessive speeds easily avoid collisions with the enemy warships and each other. Oh, and all their planets and star bases will instantly go to warp too so you can't land invading forces on them. Duh!"


    I've tried to explain it to them. We're wasting our collective breath, my friend.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

  10. #320
    Can't stop the signal...
    theangryamerican's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    The Wild West
    Last Seen
    07-29-13 @ 11:50 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    2,233

    Re: Federation v Empire

    By the way, I was pretty sure there was reference to the shields in the movies, I just couldn't place it previously.

    Here's the ANH script excerpt:
    VOICE OVER DEATH STAR INTERCOM: Clear Bay twenty-three-seven. We are
    opening the magnetic field.

    INTERIOR: DEATH STAR -- DOCKING BAY 2037.

    The pirateship is pulled in through port doors of the Death
    Star, coming to rest in a huge hangar. Thirty stormtroopers
    stand at attention in a central assembly area.

    OFFICER: To your stations!

    OFFICER: (to another officer) Come with me.

    INTERIOR: DEATH STAR -- HALLWAY.

    Stormtroopers run to their posts.

    INTERIOR: DEATH STAR -- HANGAR 2037.

    A line of stormtroopers march toward the pirateship in
    readiness to board it, while other troopers stand with weapons
    ready to fire.

    OFFICER: Close all outboard shields! Close all outboard shields!
    Good enough for ya?
    Last edited by theangryamerican; 11-03-10 at 08:51 PM.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

Page 32 of 43 FirstFirst ... 22303132333442 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •