View Poll Results: In a war between the Federation and the Empire, who wins?

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  • Empire

    22 46.81%
  • Federation

    25 53.19%
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Thread: Federation v Empire

  1. #301
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    None of your examples show a fleet action at warp....
    You arent paying attention. This doesnt matter, and yes, one does.
    Your standard here is not just meaningless, but proven false.

    You're trying to argue that, for sone reason, even though Federation ships are perfectly capable of engaging both FTL and sub-light enemies while moving FTL, they somehow will not do so when faced with a huge number of very large sub-light targets that cannot shoot at the Fed ships so long as said Fed ships remain at FTL speeds.

    This is, on its face, laughable.

  2. #302
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    You arent paying attention. This doesnt matter, and yes, one does.
    Your standard here is not just meaningless, but proven false.

    You're trying to argue that, for sone reason, even though Federation ships are perfectly capable of engaging both FTL and sub-light enemies while moving FTL, they somehow will not do so when faced with a huge number of very large sub-light targets that cannot shoot at the Fed ships so long as said Fed ships remain at FTL speeds.

    This is, on its face, laughable.
    Prove it, or your argument, at all levels, is laughable. You have stated that only what is seen on screen is what is being used here, so according to your terms, give me an on screen example of a major fleet battle with on screen warp strafing, with no sub-light involved. Five ships is not a fleet battle. Your non-canon extrapolations need not apply. Seriously, this is pathetic…

    …or do you mean to tell me that within a single solar system, filled with celestial bodies and thousands of enemy ships in close proximity, at least one the size of a moon, others about a mile to five miles long, hundreds of your own ships are going to fly at ludicrous speeds between these ships in strafing runs just because they suddenly thought it seemed like the right thing to do, for no apparent reason?

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  3. #303
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    on screen:

    empire ships were taken out by asteroid/meteor impacts in Empire Strikes Back. The navigational deflectors on Federation vessels are capable of protecting against this.

    Federation weapons would cut through Empire shielding like tissue paper...unless you plan to argue than the Empire ships willingly went into an asteroid field with their shields down.

    BTW...still waiting on that proof that the 2nd death star had internal shield generators.
    Last edited by OscarB63; 11-03-10 at 06:07 PM.
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  4. #304
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Whovian View Post
    This is technically correct. However, Luke's torpedo was guided by the Force. It could have done a triple loop and still gone straight down the shaft.
    My take on the whole torpedo/exhaust port bit was that the torpedo only needed to enter the top of the shaft, not travel the whole length - that it would set off whatever was being exhausted from the port, and that would follow the shaft down to the reactor.

    Another possibility is that the exhaust shaft was itself shielded in some way that would prevent the torpedo from hitting anything on the way down. I mean, after all, it was an exhaust port from a “hypermatter” reactor, or some such…one would assume that the exhaust would have some unknown properties…

    Speaking of which, according to some analysis I read (it was linked in this thread somewhere), an anti-matter reacton would not provide enough power for the death star’s planet destruction shot – unless it used an amount of anti-matter equivalent in size to the death star itself – or some such.
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  5. #305
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    No doubt. And to take it out would be difficult. BUT... its clear that the Feds would have an aopportunity to do, given what we see on film. Note too that it doesnt need to be destroyed, just have its main gun disabled.
    They would have an opportunity to do so, but it seems doubtful that they would be successful. Disabling the main gun could be possible, but based on what we saw in SW, it seems like that isn't too easy. After all, if it was easier to just take out the main gun than destroy the station, the alliance would have done that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Yes.. but that was due very much to the fact that the DS could destroy those ships with a single shot. The Feds dont have that issue.
    Keep in mind though that the alliance didn't know that the DS2 could target their ships with the superlaser. They made the assumption that they would need to use fighters without knowing it could do that. So that statement must have been based solely on their heavy ships inability to penetrate its shields.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Yeah. My bet is that they cannot. The DS apparently has to be close, and apparently moves rather slowly when not in HS - how long did it take to set up the shot in E4?. Remember that the Feds can ignore anything the Imperials send w/ the DS until the DS is disabled, and so until that point, the DS gets shot at by any and everything in range.
    The feds can't ignore everything the imps send with it, unless they want their ships to get shot to hell by the support fleet.

    Part of the reason it took so long to set up the shot in E4 was because they had to orbit the planet to get to the moon that was their target. That wouldn't be an issue with an attack on earth. Remember that they were able to hyperspace jump rather close into the planet.
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  6. #306
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    the rebels lost a good portion of their fighters because the fighters had to make their way down that ridiculous narrow tunnel. a shuttle with a transporter would not have such limitation. also...the exhaust port was "ray" shielded which was why they had to use torpedo. the rest of the death star was not shielded, as evidenced by the explosions and damage caused by rebel fighters shooting it or crashing into it. so the shuttle would not have to worry about beaming the explosive thru shields.
    The 'transporters are the solution to everything' argument has been debunked in this thread before. Transporters are ridiculously easy to block. The empire would very rapidly figure out a way to negate that advantage. Besides, transporters have been shown before to be blocked by thick enough rocks, what makes you think they'd be able to penetrate hundreds of kilometers of armor and hull metal?
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  7. #307
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    Luke's shot was BS for SF anyway. no way in hell that torpedo could have entered the shaft, made a 90 degree turn downward and followed the tunnel all the way to the reactor without impacting on any surface and detonating prior to reaching the intended target unless it was somehow guided. completely and totally implausible.
    What a ridiculous argument. What we saw happen on-screen takes precedence over your opinion of what is and isn't plausible.
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  8. #308
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    Prove it, or your argument, at all levels, is laughable. You have stated that only what is seen on screen is what is being used here, so according to your terms, give me an on screen example of a major fleet battle with on screen warp strafing, with no sub-light involved. Five ships is not a fleet battle. Your non-canon extrapolations need not apply. Seriously, this is pathetic…

    …or do you mean to tell me that within a single solar system, filled with celestial bodies and thousands of enemy ships in close proximity, at least one the size of a moon, others about a mile to five miles long, hundreds of your own ships are going to fly at ludicrous speeds between these ships in strafing runs just because they suddenly thought it seemed like the right thing to do, for no apparent reason?

    The demolition derby is that way, kiddo. -------------------->
    Actually, I would like to comment on this discussion.

    There is no proof that Empire ships cannot hit Fed ships while the Fed ships are in the ST universes version of FTL travel - there is only proof that Empire ships cannot hit other SW universe ships while they are in the SW universes version of FTL travel.

    Are there any instances of ST ships at impulse firing at and hitting ST ships that were in warp? If so, one would have to assume that Empire ships would have a chance at hitting ST ships in warp, if only by filling the space in front of the ST ships with TL fire and such.
    Flack, anyone?
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  9. #309
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    The 'transporters are the solution to everything' argument has been debunked in this thread before. Transporters are ridiculously easy to block. The empire would very rapidly figure out a way to negate that advantage. Besides, transporters have been shown before to be blocked by thick enough rocks, what makes you think they'd be able to penetrate hundreds of kilometers of armor and hull metal?
    wouldn't have too, just beam it along the same path the torpedo followed in EP4 and Lando followed in EP6

    I am still waiting on someone to show me any proof that the DS has shielding. In both EP4 and 6 the reason the alliance big ships didn't directly attack the DS wasn;t because it was shielded, but because it was too damn big for their weapons to do significant damage. The only reason the DS in EP6 was shielded was due to the shield generator on Endor. The federation is highly unlikely to allow the empire to build shield generators on any of it's planets in order to shield a death star.
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  10. #310
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Actually, I would like to comment on this discussion.

    There is no proof that Empire ships cannot hit Fed ships while the Fed ships are in the ST universes version of FTL travel - there is only proof that Empire ships cannot hit other SW universe ships while they are in the SW universes version of FTL travel.

    Are there any instances of ST ships at impulse firing at and hitting ST ships that were in warp? If so, one would have to assume that Empire ships would have a chance at hitting ST ships in warp, if only by filling the space in front of the ST ships with TL fire and such.
    Flack, anyone?
    both warp and hyperspace are not "normal space" any weapon fired from normal space in an attempt to hit a ship at warp would fail (imagine trying to flip off a light switch and jump into bed before the light goes out). also, there is nowhere for the weapon to draw additional energy to overcome the lightspeed barrier. I suppose the Empire might theoretically be able to equip all their missiles with mini hyperdrives and launch them in the path of incoming Federation ships, IF they could accurately guess the inbound trajectory. However, such missiles would, IMHO, be prohibitively expensive and I doubt the empire would have the resources to generate the sheer mass of missiles required to make such a tactic effective.
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