View Poll Results: In a war between the Federation and the Empire, who wins?

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  • Empire

    22 46.81%
  • Federation

    25 53.19%
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Thread: Federation v Empire

  1. #291
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    smoking crack dude. and BTW, FWIW, FYI, I did not bring this up as an arguement for/against the Empire for the purposes of this discussion. I just thought it happened to be a glaring hole in the story.

    on screen, the torpedoes made a dramatic downward turn into the shaft. there is no way you can explain that using trajectories, the should have impacted against the back of the shaft. the only way that could have possibly happened is if instead of an exhaust port it was an intake port and the torpedoes were moving slowly and were sucked into the shaft. given the physical laws governing the SW universe, there is no way in hell that shot should have been effective. just sayin...
    This is technically correct. However, Luke's torpedo was guided by the Force. It could have done a triple loop and still gone straight down the shaft.

  2. #292
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    Cite for me ONE episode where a major battle was fought by one side being in warp for the entirety of the battle in TOS and I'll concede your point
    This is a false standard. That they can fire their weapons while at warp (ample evidence) and that they can fire at targets both at FTL and sub-light (again, ample evidence) while at warp is all that is necessary to show that ST ships can fight while moving FTL.

    All on screen evidence shows the contrary.
    Aside from this being incorrect...
    That they often drop to sub0light to fight proves nothing other than they often drop to sub-light to fight.
    Thus, the point stands - your unwillingness to accept it notwithstanding.

  3. #293
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    Cite your "conclusive evidence."

    The second Death Star had shield generators as well but was using a planetary shield during construction, as it was not yet fully operational.

    proof, I can't find anything that confirms the DS2 had independent shield generators.

    I do recall the Emporer wanting Luke to witness the power of the FULLY OPERATIONAL death star. if it was fully functional and still needed the shield generated from Endor...logic dictates that it did NOT have it's own shield generators.
    Last edited by OscarB63; 11-03-10 at 04:23 PM.
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  4. #294
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Whovian View Post
    This is technically correct. However, Luke's torpedo was guided by the Force. It could have done a triple loop and still gone straight down the shaft.
    I find my lack of faith disturbing

    anyone else think the guy who designed the death star was a dumbass? come on, a shaft that leads directly from the reactor straight to the surface with no grills, filters, crossbeams, etc in it. massive design flaw. screen door on a submarine.
    Last edited by OscarB63; 11-03-10 at 04:22 PM.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

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  5. #295
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    This is a false standard. That they can fire their weapons while at warp (ample evidence) and that they can fire at targets both at FTL and sub-light (again, ample evidence) while at warp is all that is necessary to show that ST ships can fight while moving FTL.


    Aside from this being incorrect...
    That they often drop to sub0light to fight proves nothing other than they often drop to sub-light to fight.
    Thus, the point stands - your unwillingness to accept it notwithstanding.
    Ridiculous premise. You want SW to stick solely to what is shown on screen, but want us to believe the Federation will suddenly, for no apparent reason change the way that they consistently engage enemies? Nevermind that your proposed method of fighting space battles is not witnessed at any point in ANY of the ST films or shows. Try again.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

  6. #296
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    Ridiculous premise.
    Hardly. There are any number of perfectly good reasons for a fight to happen at sub-light. That they do sometimes fight at sub-light doesnt in any way mean they cannot fight FTL.

    There is -ample- evidence that they can and do so fight FTL; the very fact that the ships inarguably deomostrate the ability to effectively fire their weapons at a myriad of targets while moving FTL proves all that needs to be proven in this regard.

    Nevermind that your proposed method of fighting space battles is not witnessed at any point in ANY of the ST films or shows. Try again
    Sigh.
    A FTL battle between Enterprise and a Klingon cruiser in Elaan of Troyius and the Enterprise figthing at FTL speeds in Balance of Terror illustrates that you're either lying or ignorant. You choose.
    Either way, it also illustrates that I'm right.

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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Hardly. There are any number of perfectly good reasons for a fight to happen at sub-light. That they do sometimes fight at sub-light doesnt in any way mean they cannot fight FTL.

    There is -ample- evidence that they can and do so fight FTL; the very fact that the ships inarguably deomostrate the ability to effectively fire their weapons at a myriad of targets while moving FTL proves all that needs to be proven in this regard.


    Sigh.
    A FTL battle between Enterprise and a Klingon cruiser in Elaan of Troyius and the Enterprise figthing at FTL speeds in Balance of Terror illustrates that you're either lying or ignorant. You choose.
    Either way, it also illustrates that I'm right.
    If I recall correctly neither of those battles depicted the Federation ship at warp and the other stationary, negating your use of them as examples. Further, one ship against another single ship is not a major battle like I stated. Try again.

    "Elaan of Troyius"[TOS], It was a Klingon warp-strafing the Enterprise, which further, didn't even manage to destroy them...

    "Balance of Terror"[TOS]:
    Both ships were at warp.

    I'm neither lying nor ignorant, you're not giving an example of what I asked for, because it does not exist.
    Last edited by theangryamerican; 11-03-10 at 05:27 PM.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

  8. #298
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    If I recall correctly all ships involved were travelling at warp during those fights...negating your use of them as examples.
    Um... you recall incorrectly -- the fighting was FTL.
    These episodes -prove- that Kirk-Era ST ships can and do fight each other at FTL (Troyius), and that that can and do engage sub-light targets while fighting at FTL(Troyius, Balance).
    Case closed.

    Further, one ship against another single ship is not a major battle like I stated.
    Like -I- stated, this is a false standard.
    BUT, since you seem to think this standard is somehow meaningful:
    The Ultimate Computer:
    Enterprise engages Lexington, Potemkin, Excalibur, and Hood at both FTL and sub-light speed.

    Are you NOW ready to concede the point?
    Last edited by Goobieman; 11-03-10 at 05:37 PM.

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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Um...
    They -prove- that Kirk-Era ST ships can and do fight each other at FTL (Troyius), and that that can and do engage sub-light targets while fighting at FTL(Troyius, Balance).
    Case closed.


    Like -I- stated, this is a false standard.
    BUT, since you seem to think this standard is somehow meaningful:
    The Ultimate Computer:
    Enterprise engages Lexington, Potemkin, Excalibur, and Hood at both FTL and sub-light speed.

    Are you NOW ready to concede the point?
    No, I edited my post before I read yours to be more precise.

    None of your examples show a fleet action at warp, so you're still not getting it. I'm not trying to tell you that warp strafing is impossible. I'm telling you that the Federation has NO history of doing it in major battles, so there is no magical reason for them to do so suddenly when battling a new enemy like the Empire. It just plain does not stand to reason with anything seen on screen. Sorry.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

  10. #300
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    so there is no magical reason for them to do so suddenly when battling a new enemy like the Empire. .
    other than the fact that they are a military and militaries adapt their tactics to the situation in order to be more effective. The Federation has the capability to attack from warp, what makes you think they would not use that capability against an enemy that greatly out-numbered them and does not have that capability.

    the point is that the capability to attack from warp has been demonstrated.

    the federation never modulated shield/weapons harmonics until they faced the Borg...then "MAGICALLY" they did when battling a new enemy. therefore the federation has demonstrated the ability to adapt existing capabilities to new situations.
    Last edited by OscarB63; 11-03-10 at 05:44 PM.
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