View Poll Results: In a war between the Federation and the Empire, who wins?

Voters
47. You may not vote on this poll
  • Empire

    22 46.81%
  • Federation

    25 53.19%
Page 28 of 43 FirstFirst ... 18262728293038 ... LastLast
Results 271 to 280 of 429

Thread: Federation v Empire

  1. #271
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Last Seen
    03-22-15 @ 02:36 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    17,343

    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    I would argue they could do it fairly often. The death star's power generating capabilities are MANY orders of magnitude greater than any other ship we've seen in the SW universe. The death star is the one imperial ship that I feel safe saying that the federation would have an extremely hard time hurting.
    No doubt. And to take it out would be difficult. BUT... its clear that the Feds would have an aopportunity to do, given what we see on film. Note too that it doesnt need to be destroyed, just have its main gun disabled.

    That would lead me to believe that their shields are able to take much more of a pounding as well. This is also supported by the fact that the alliance felt it was not worth even trying to attack it with their heavy ships.
    Yes.. but that was due very much to the fact that the DS could destroy those ships with a single shot. The Feds dont have that issue.

    If we were using non-film canon, I'd argue that the Feds would just send squadrons of F15s and A20s to get inside and make a mess

    Are you kidding me? Earth is target number one. Sure, it would be heavily defended, but all they have to do is get the death star close enough for one superlaser shot, and the federation not only loses its leadership, but a significant portion of its manufacturing base as well.
    Yeah. My bet is that they cannot. The DS apparently has to be close, and apparently moves rather slowly when not in HS - how long did it take to set up the shot in E4?. Remember that the Feds can ignore anything the Imperials send w/ the DS until the DS is disabled, and so until that point, the DS gets shot at by any and everything in range.

  2. #272
    Farts in Elevators
    OscarB63's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Alabama
    Last Seen
    09-06-14 @ 07:26 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    26,526

    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    The target is well shielded. Hence the attack run at the exhaust port in the movie. Attempting to beam anything through shields either doesn't work or has a very poor success rate in the ST universe. The rebels lost a good protion of their fighters in the attack on the Death Star, so I'd have to say a single shuttle would be just cannon fodder.
    the rebels lost a good portion of their fighters because the fighters had to make their way down that ridiculous narrow tunnel. a shuttle with a transporter would not have such limitation. also...the exhaust port was "ray" shielded which was why they had to use torpedo. the rest of the death star was not shielded, as evidenced by the explosions and damage caused by rebel fighters shooting it or crashing into it. so the shuttle would not have to worry about beaming the explosive thru shields.
    Last edited by OscarB63; 11-03-10 at 01:35 PM.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

  3. #273
    Can't stop the signal...
    theangryamerican's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    The Wild West
    Last Seen
    07-29-13 @ 11:50 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    2,233

    Re: Federation v Empire

    Actually that’s incorrect. Both Death Stars were defended by hundreds of shield projectors, and thousands of turbolasers, ion cannons and laser cannons. The first one contained a complement of seven to nine thousand TIE fighters, along with tens of thousands of support craft, bombers, and gunships. Massive docking bays provided several Star Destroyers with dry docks, and more than a million Imperial personnel were on board both battle stations.

    The reason the rebels were not confronted with a swarm of TIE fighters right away was due to the fact that Tarkin thought they were not a serious threat. Against an entire fleet, like the Federation, the Empire would be less likely to make that same misjudgment.

    There were small gaps in the shields of the first Death Star; but again, the Empire believed that this was harmless since only small ships could wiggle through the gaps. The shields of the second Death Star would have had no such gaps.

    The ships you see striking the surface are already inside the shield of the Death Star. The rebel fighters had to fly the trench to stay under the multitude of surface guns on the station.

    On a side note, the second Death Star also corrected several other flaws in the original design. The two-meter exhaust vent that doomed the first station was replaced with millions of millimeter wide tubes, each designed to seal if excess energy was detected. The second station also boasted far more turbolaser batteries with redesigned targeting systems, allowing them to target starfighters more easily. The greatest concentration of turbolasers was located near the Emperor's throne tower.
    Here’s a good summary detailing a substitution of the Federation for the Rebellion in the Battle of Yavin. Granted a few of the examples in it are from outside TOS (for that I apologize) but it’s pretty thorough none-the-less. This is not to say that the Federation could never, under any circumstances, destroy a Death Star, it’s just not as easy as you make it out to be... and the Empire demonstrated the ability to produce those pretty quickly

    • First, we must define their assets. Instead of thirty X-wing fighters, they would have thirty runabouts or Peregrine fighters. Their base defenses would presumably consist of orbital defense platforms, although they would be insignificant compared to a Death Star.
    • If they have capships at their disposal, they wouldn't fare any better than the defense platforms. Much like the Gungan theatre shield in TPM, the ANH Death Star shield was apparently semi-permeable, permitting passage only for slow-moving, small objects (this explains why the X-wings would accelerate to intercept the Death Star, decelerate to match speeds with it, and then "accelerate to attack speed" after passing slowly through the shield). Capital ships would never slip through its shield, thus making them useless (except as clay pidgeons for the Death Star's surface guns).
    • Therefore, it would fall to the fighters to stop the Death Star, just as it did in the original battle. The fighters would have to lob a torpedo into the exhaust port in spite of the massive jamming which was described in the canon ANH novelization. This means they would have to get close enough to get a target lock and hope that their missiles fly true in spite of the jamming. It also means that they would have to make the trench run just like the X-wing fighters did, for the same reason (to fly in under the impenetrable defensive cross-fire over the port).
    • This means they would have to fly largely on manual control, while evading TIE fighters and defensive blasts until they can get close enough to launch their missiles. Therein lies the first serious problem: Federation pilots are rarely capable of doing anything on manual control. Riker is considered an exceptional pilot (the best on the Enterprise, as we found out in "Chain of Command"), largely because he can do it while others can't.
    • A second serious problem involves simple geometry. While an X-wing's proton torpedoes measure less than 0.5 metres in any dimension, a Federation photon torpedo measures 2.1 metres in length and 0.76 metres in width. This means that it is virtually impossible for a photon torpedo to approach the port from the side, make a hard 90 degree turn and enter the port without touching the walls, by virtue of its size. However, micro-torpedoes are smaller, so this problem would only apply to ships which have been outfitted with full-size torpedoes.
    • A third serious problem involves maneuverability. While we witnessed Luke's torpedo execute a hard turn in ANH requiring many tens of thousands of g's of acceleration, we've never witnessed such maneuverability from a photon torpedo. Photorp turning circles are in the range of hundreds of metres or even several kilometres, not one or two metres. They've never demonstrated the ability to execute anything remotely like the ANH maneuver, which was a 90 degree turn inside a turning circle of one metre.
    • If the Federation replaced the Rebellion they would be forced to adopt the Rebellion's tactics, which were the only way to attack the Death Star due to its shields, defensive weapons and jammers. But they aren't capable of duplicating Luke's shot into the exhaust port, due to problems with pilot skill and torpedo maneuverability.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

  4. #274
    Sage
    German guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Last Seen
    08-24-17 @ 06:57 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    5,187

    Re: Federation v Empire

    The Federation wins, of course. The good guys always win in the end.
    Last edited by German guy; 11-03-10 at 03:00 PM.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  5. #275
    Farts in Elevators
    OscarB63's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Alabama
    Last Seen
    09-06-14 @ 07:26 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    26,526

    Re: Federation v Empire

    Luke's shot was BS for SF anyway. no way in hell that torpedo could have entered the shaft, made a 90 degree turn downward and followed the tunnel all the way to the reactor without impacting on any surface and detonating prior to reaching the intended target unless it was somehow guided. completely and totally implausible.
    Last edited by OscarB63; 11-03-10 at 02:57 PM.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

  6. #276
    Farts in Elevators
    OscarB63's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Alabama
    Last Seen
    09-06-14 @ 07:26 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    26,526

    Re: Federation v Empire

    I just think, based solely on the visual evidence seen on film and TV (since I am not a big enough nerd to read all the fan fiction, novels, etc associated with either ST or SW) that the Federation would win. when not in hyperspace, the empire's ships appear big, slow and ponderous. the millenium falcon was a POS held together with luck, baling wire and wookie fur and it's shields still withstood several direct hits from a star destroyer. Some of the Empire's best troops were outwitted by a handful of rebels and a bunch of primitive teddy bears.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

  7. #277
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    dimensionally transcendental
    Last Seen
    08-15-11 @ 04:31 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    7,153

    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    Luke's shot was BS for SF anyway. no way in hell that torpedo could have entered the shaft, made a 90 degree turn downward and followed the tunnel all the way to the reactor without impacting on any surface and detonating prior to reaching the intended target unless it was somehow guided. completely and totally implausible.
    It WAS guided... by the Force... remember? That's why the previous attempt impaced on the surface.

  8. #278
    Can't stop the signal...
    theangryamerican's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    The Wild West
    Last Seen
    07-29-13 @ 11:50 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    2,233

    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    Luke's shot was BS for SF anyway. no way in hell that torpedo could have entered the shaft, made a 90 degree turn downward and followed the tunnel all the way to the reactor without impacting on any surface and detonating prior to reaching the intended target unless it was somehow guided. completely and totally implausible.
    So not only were the movies the only valid, acceptable source of info in the thread, but even that can’t be used now because the things you see on screen “can’t happen” in your expert opinion? You Trekkies are way overboard in your extrapolations and liberal interpretation of established events just to make a failed point.

    Every time there’s a flaw in your argument the rules of the game change. This is like trying to play a game of Rock, Paper, Scissors with the guy that makes the stick of dynamite with his index finger.

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    The Federation wins, of course. The good guys always win in the end.
    Touche, well played, Good Sir.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

  9. #279
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    dimensionally transcendental
    Last Seen
    08-15-11 @ 04:31 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    7,153

    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    So not only were the movies the only valid, acceptable source of info in the thread, but even that can’t be used now because the things you see on screen “can’t happen” in your expert opinion? You Trekkies are way overboard in your extrapolations and liberal interpretation of established events just to make a failed point.

    Every time there’s a flaw in your argument the rules of the game change. This is like trying to play a game of Rock, Paper, Scissors with the guy that makes the stick of dynamite with his index finger.

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy
    The Federation wins, of course. The good guys always win in the end.
    Touche, well played, Good Sir.
    But 'nice guys finish last', so the Empire would win

  10. #280
    Farts in Elevators
    OscarB63's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Alabama
    Last Seen
    09-06-14 @ 07:26 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    26,526

    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Whovian View Post
    It WAS guided... by the Force... remember? That's why the previous attempt impaced on the surface.
    it was guided into the port by the force, not all the way down as evidenced by Luke's reaction/relaxation as soon as it entered the shaft.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

Page 28 of 43 FirstFirst ... 18262728293038 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •