View Poll Results: In a war between the Federation and the Empire, who wins?

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  • Empire

    22 46.81%
  • Federation

    25 53.19%
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Thread: Federation v Empire

  1. #251
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    In a government of a million systems, there's going to be a lot of important ones. Face it. The empire can afford to fight a war of attrition, the federation can't. Even if the federation won 90% of the battles that were fought, they'd still lose the war.
    Yes, there is -- but then, the ease of destroying them is incredible.
    It also seems to me - and this is just an impression, but is vaguely backed by the information on film and makes sense given we're talking about an Empire - that while the Empire may be vast, the locus of power is small, as are the number of strategic facilities. So, it might very wll be that there are lot of Imperial planets, there are a disproportionally few that are important.

  2. #252
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    Actually, I don't support that figure, it seems ridiculously high. I do support the estimates based on the scene in TESB where the star destroyer is vaporizing asteroids in the hoth asteroid belt, as well as some other estimates based on things shown on-screen, which comes out to something between 5 and 50 megatons per shot.
    I'd take a look at the opening scene of E4, where a Blockade Runner takes a direct hit from a SD turbolaser. A 5MT blast directly to the hull would vaporize it.
    But, even with that number, thats well within the realm os ST weapons - a single Photon can destroy an asteroid comparable in size to the cruiser that launched said photon.
    But, its good that you agree that the numbers your source came up with are ridiculous.

    Federation phasers put out something around the same amount of energy, but star destroyers carry more guns and can fire more often.
    I dont know that you can say more often... but by scaling back the weapons to comparable power, you also scale back the protection afforded by the shields. This means that Fed ships are able to, in a resonable short period of time, reduce the shields and blow holed in the engineering and control spaces. Dont forget that the main reactor of a SD pokes out the belly.

    I dismiss the idea of federation ships fighting solely from warp, because what's shown on-screen doesn't support it.
    Sure - they often drop to sub-light. But they clearly do not HAVE to, and are capable of firing all their weapons from warp. Whatever advantage there may be in dropping to SL is negated by the advantage of your opponent not being able to shoot at you.

  3. #253
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Yes, there is -- but then, the ease of destroying them is incredible.
    As is the ease of destroying federation planets. So it's essentially going to be a race to see who can destroy the other's ability to make war first. The empire has the edge in that kind of fight. The federation is relatively small, not only population wise, but actual size-wise. It's only a few thousand light-years across. The empire stretches across a significant portion of a galaxy. Even assuming that there are a similar number of 'important' planets that need to be destroyed (which I'm not sure I agree with), and assuming that star wars hyperdrives move at the same speed as federation warp drives (which I also disagree with), the empire will have an easier job of it, since they simply have less distance to cover.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    It also seems to me - and this is just an impression, but is vaguely backed by the information on film and makes sense given we're talking about an Empire - that while the Empire may be vast, the locus of power is small, as are the number of strategic facilities. So, it might very wll be that there are lot of Imperial planets, there are a disproportionally few that are important.
    Could be true, it's hard to tell based solely on what's shown on-screen. The same is true of the federation though, and possibly their situation is even worse. I'm not as familiar with Star Trek, (especially not the original series) but isn't starfleet command and pretty much all of their shipbuilding centered on earth?
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

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  4. #254
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    If that were the case, you'd have a point.
    Its not, so you don't. The parameters of the discussion are clear; if you don't want to discuss the topic withing those parameters, then you're simply wasting everyone's time.
    Are you actually going to address your mindless butchering of canon on both sides, or just keep deflecting? Just curious...
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  5. #255
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    I'd take a look at the opening scene of E4, where a Blockade Runner takes a direct hit from a SD turbolaser. A 5MT blast directly to the hull would vaporize it.
    Without knowing what the blockade runner's hull is made of, it's impossible to say whether a 5MT blast could vaporize it or not. The blast did seem to do a good bit of damage though (the radius of the explosion was close to the same size as the blockade runner itself)

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    But, even with that number, thats well within the realm os ST weapons - a single Photon can destroy an asteroid comparable in size to the cruiser that launched said photon.
    But, its good that you agree that the numbers your source came up with are ridiculous.
    Well, the site I posted uses information that comes from a lot of sources. Not all of it is from the films/TV shows. The 500GT per shot figure comes from one of the myriad of 'technical manuals' that's been published for star wars. Some people use those, some people don't. In a discussion using only on-screen sources, then those kinds of power numbers are unsupportable. Using only on-screen sources, I would say that the power of SW and ST weapons seem to match up fairly well, probably within an order of magnitude or so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    I dont know that you can say more often... but by scaling back the weapons to comparable power, you also scale back the protection afforded by the shields. This means that Fed ships are able to, in a resonable short period of time, reduce the shields and blow holed in the engineering and control spaces. Dont forget that the main reactor of a SD pokes out the belly.
    I would argue that they can fire more often. Check out the two videos below.


    This shows the firing rate of an early-model star destroyer. Watch for it to come out of the bottom left corner of the screen at 35 seconds. The little flashes of light on the top of the hull are its guns firing. It fires maybe 10 or 12 times in the 3 or 4 seconds that it's on-screen. There's some other good footage of a serious SW space battle in the video as well.

    Compare that to this:

    The enterprise's phasers fire much less frequently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Sure - they often drop to sub-light. But they clearly do not HAVE to, and are capable of firing all their weapons from warp. Whatever advantage there may be in dropping to SL is negated by the advantage of your opponent not being able to shoot at you.
    I'm still not sure I buy it. Based solely on on-screen evidence, ST ships fight almost solely at sublight speeds. Speaking of which, has it ever been shown that ST ships under warp can attack ship-sized targets which aren't moving at warp speeds? Mostly when they show combat under warp, it's two warp-speed ships fighting each other.
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  6. #256
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    I'm not as familiar with Star Trek, (especially not the original series) but isn't starfleet command and pretty much all of their shipbuilding centered on earth?
    Actually, no. While Starfleet Command is on Earth, facilities such as ship building and so on are scattered throughout the Federation. For instance, Enterprise D was built at the Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards in orbit of Mars.
    Last edited by Whovian; 11-02-10 at 09:33 PM.

  7. #257
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    Are you actually going to address your mindless butchering of canon on both sides, or just keep deflecting? Just curious...
    I'm going to back Goobie up on this one. It's his question, he should be able to set the terms under which it's answered. "Only what you see, pal" is a perfectly valid assumption for this type of debate. The only thing he could have done better was to spell out what sources were allowed in the OP.

    If you want to ask the same question with different source material, start your own thread.

    Besides, the on-screen evidence still favors the empire, it's just less overwhelmingly so.
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  8. #258
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by Whovian View Post
    Actually, no. While Starfellt Command is on Earth, faciliteis such as ship building and so on are scattered throughout the Federation. For instance, Enterprise D was built at the Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards in orbit of Mars.
    Multiple facilities in a single solar system aren't don't really count as multiple locations. Does the federation have major facilities in remote locations?
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  9. #259
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    Multiple facilities in a single solar system aren't don't really count as multiple locations. Does the federation have major facilities in remote locations?
    Federation shipyards - Memory Alpha, the Star Trek Wiki
    The following is a list of Federation shipyards and maintenance and repair facilities. In addition to the facilities listed here, most larger starbases and outposts are also capable of repairing and building ships.

    * 40 Eridani A Starfleet Construction Yards
    * Antares Ship Yards
    * Baikonur Cosmodrome
    * Beta Antares Ship Yards
    * Copernicus Ship Yards
    * Earth Station McKinley
    * Luna Shipyards
    * Marin County Starfleet Yards
    * NX Drydock (22nd century)
    * Oakland Fleet Yards
    * Proxima Maintenance Yards
    * Riverside Shipyard
    * San Francisco Fleet Yards (also known as "San Francisco Naval Yards" or "San Francisco Yards")
    * Tranquility Base
    * University of Copernicus
    * Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards (also known as "Utopia Planitia Ship Yards")
    * Warp Five Complex (22nd century)

    According to the USS Enterprise's computer in the CD-ROM game Star Trek: 25th Anniversary, the Tri-Rho Nautica shipyards are one of the largest in the Federation. They orbit Tri-Rho Nautica III in a system that is close to the Klingon border.

  10. #260
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    Re: Federation v Empire

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    I'm going to back Goobie up on this one. It's his question, he should be able to set the terms under which it's answered. "Only what you see, pal" is a perfectly valid assumption for this type of debate. The only thing he could have done better was to spell out what sources were allowed in the OP.

    If you want to ask the same question with different source material, start your own thread.

    Besides, the on-screen evidence still favors the empire, it's just less overwhelmingly so.
    I realize it's still no contest and I've already conceded not using tech outside of the SW movies, however, he's violating his own canon in an attempt to produce a victory and I'm just taking him to task on it.

    He can spell out the time periods, but it's still Star Trek according to Roddenberry and Paramount, not according to Goobieman.
    Last edited by theangryamerican; 11-02-10 at 09:37 PM.
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