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Federation v Empire

In a war between the Federation and the Empire, who wins?

  • Total voters
    32
OscarB63 said:
yeah, if they weren't worried about getting through the shield they wouldn't have sent the crew to destroy the generator on the moon and they wouldn't have **** themselves pulling up when they discovered the shield was still up. none of which proves that the DS2 had independent shield capability.
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They weren't worried about getting thru the shield, they were worried about getting thru the shield before the defenses could push them away - if you know the other side cannot shoot back, you dont care how long it takes to drop the shield; defenses put a time limit on how long you have to inflict the necessary damage, and so if you believe there is a time limit, you must have some expectation of a defense capable of pushing you back.

So, they expected a fight of some sort - sending the force they did indicates that they espected that fight to be stiff.
 
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Goobieman said:
There is no evidence to the contrary.
Ther is absolutely NO support for the argument that ST ships --must-- slow to sub-light before fighting, either singly or in groups, regardless of the speed of the targets.
There is indisputible evidence that ST ships CAN engage these targets from FTL.
I'm sorry -- you're just done.
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The burden is on you to prove that the Federation uses warp in any major fleet engagement, since that’s what we’re specifically discussing. You have failed to do so. Please read before replying. At no point did I dispute your ability to fire from warp.
Goobieman said:
There's no evidence to support this.
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127 INT REBEL STAR CRUISER - BRIDGE 127

ACKBAR
We've got to give those fighters more time.
Concentrate all fire on that Super Star
Destroyer.

X-wings pilots head across the surface of the huge battleship.

128 INT VADER'S STAR DESTROYER - BRIDGE 128

Admiral Piett and a commander stand at the window, looking out to
the battle. They look concerned.

CONTROLLER
Sir, we've lost our bridge deflector shield.

PIETT
Intensify the forward batteries. I don't want
anything to get through.

The commander is looking out of the window where a damaged Rebel
fighter is out of control and heading directly toward the bridge.

PIETT
Intensify forward firepower!

COMMANDER
It's too late!

The Rebel pilot screams as his ship hits the Star Destroyer,
causing a huge explosion. The giant battle ship loses control,
crashes into the Death Star, and explodes.
Click to expand...

Proven wrong. Next.
 
theangryamerican said:
The burden is on you to prove that the Federation uses warp in any major fleet engagement...
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No. Its not. The only question is the capability to fire from FTL at FTL/non-FTL targets, which has been wholly deomstrated, as you admit.

The standard you want to inteject here is meaningless, and, because of its nature, will continue to be meaningless, no matter how many times you try to interject it.
 
Goobieman said:
No. Its not. The only question is the capability to fire from FTL at FTL/non-FTL targets, which has been wholly deomstrated, as you admit.

The standard you want to inteject here is meaningless, and, because of its nature, will continue to be meaningless, no matter how many times you try to interject it.
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A wholly inadequate dismissal. I'm not arguing with your ability to use your precious, mystical warp cure-all.

I'm arguing this:
I understand that they can make "minor variations" but I'm referring to the logistics of coordinating simultaneous warp jumps with hundreds of Federation starships (I assume they have that many at least) moving on multiple attack vectors, executing hard turns through thousands of tightly grouped Imperial battle formations without dropping to sub-light at all and thereby exposing themselves to return fire. Could they do it it? Possibly. My argument was that since they have never demonstrated that tactic on a large scale under those circumstances before, they'd be unlikely to suddenly change their standard tactics of engagement in favor of something so risky without knowing a lot more about their opponents.
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This is certainly not meaningless as it determines the entire context the battle would be fought under.

Address NAO!!!!!
 
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theangryamerican said:
A wholly inadequate dismisal.
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The standard you want to inteject here is meaningless, and, because of its nature, will continue to be meaningless, no matter how many times you try to interject it.

I'm not arguing with your ability to use your precious, mystical warp cure-all.
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You say that like its inconsequential.
You might as well be arguing that while a platoon of M1A2 can utterly destory an entire Roman legion w/o any harm to itself, the advantage given by the M1s can be ignored.

I'm referring to the logistics of coordinating simultaneous warp jumps with hundreds of Federation starships
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This denotes a lack uf understanding. There are no warp jumps to coordinate -- there is warp-speed combat manuver to coordinate, which has been demonstrated.
That Star Fleet is a FLEET with a command structure, illustrated in FTL combat to the squadron level - indicates an ability to corrdinate fleets of ships in battle. It is, after all, their purpose...

...executing hard turns through thousands of tightly grouped Imperial battle formations...
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False premise. There's no deomstrable need fer the Fed ships to get inside Imperial formations.
Imperials may fight like wet-navy ships of the line, but that's forced by their limited naval technology.

My argument was that since they have never demonstrated that tactic on a large scale...
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Is meaningless, given your false premise and obvious lack of understanding of the issue.

they'd be unlikely to suddenly change their standard tactics of engagement..
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Aside from the fact that you have not shown this to be a standard tactic... in fact, the only even remotely relevant canon shows that they ARE able to coordinate the efforts of at least a squadron in FTL combat against a FTL opponent... they would be CERTAIN to change their supposed 'standard tactic' if it meant they could engage the enemy w/o any chance of taking damage - which it unquestionably does.

Let me repeat that:
They would be CERTAIN to change their supposed 'standard tactic' if it meant they could fully engage the enemy w/o any chance of taking damage - which it unquestionably does.

Refute that.
 
Goobieman said:
There’s no proof that they can, which is the point.
There is proof, however, in E4, E5, E6, that their weapons are light speed at best, and that their fire control cannot see ships moving FTL, much less engage them.
If SW ships -could- engage ships moving FTL. for example, then the Falcon doesn’t escape on her jump to Alderaan. as the Imperial ships just keep shooting at her and follow her path.

Yes. The two TOS episodes I cited show this - Balance of Terror, especially
The photon shot in STTMP does the same.
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If Fed weapons can hit Fed ships in warp, then it would seem at least possible that Imperial ships can hit Fed ships in warp. Especially because there is no indication (as far as I know) that Fed photon torpedoes are FTL in speed (except in that they hit a ship traveling at warp, but the trajectory could have been planned to place the torpedo on target with where the ship would be), and if as you say, one fired from impulse hit a ship in warp...I can see Empire weapons hitting a Fed ship in warp.

Further, I would argue that the SW FTL travel method is different from the ST FTL travel method - I think the SW FTL method precludes exchanges of fire.

While the ST FTL method (as demonstrated by your statements) allows it.

Granted, I think it would be quite hard for the Imperial forces to hit a Fed ship while it was in warp, if for no other reason than the speed of the target.

But it would still seem possible., as you mention below.

Goobieman said:
Space is huge; small errors in laying a gun add up to big misses in a hurry.
Any hit in such an attempt would be pure coincidence, especially given the Fed's ability to actually outrun the weapons fire.
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If the Fed vs. Empire conflict was prolonged, I could see the Empire designing a ship class specifically as an "anti-warp-ship" platform.

Either with insane numbers of guns rapidly firing TL and other bolts, or with guided missile weaponry. Or both.
 
Goobieman said:
Aside from the fact that you have not shown this to be a standard tactic... in fact, the only even remotely relevant canon shows that they ARE able to coordinate the efforts of at least a squadron in FTL combat against a FTL opponent... they would be CERTAIN to change their supposed 'standard tactic' if it meant they could engage the enemy w/o any chance of taking damage - which it unquestionably does.
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Prove it. :lol:
 
The Mark said:
If the Fed vs. Empire conflict was prolonged, I could see the Empire designing a ship class specifically as an "anti-warp-ship" platform.
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They already have. It's accepted SW canon, it's just not canon according to Goobie, cuz it takes away his one and only talking point. :)
 
Goobieman said:
There's no evidence to support this.
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If I recall correctly, I believe he's talking about the SSD that lost its bridge and went into an out of control dive into the DS2 after the entire rebel fleet focused fire on it, causing the shields in the bridge area (if I recall, and Imp officer stated something along the lines of "bridge deflectors are down", and the ship captain instructed that they should focus defensive fire to prevent anything from hitting the bridge - "focus all defensive firepower, I don't want anything getting through...Too late!!!" *Boom*) to go down (temporarily, I think), whereupon an out of control A-Wing suicided (unintentionally, I think) into the bridge.

Why the hell they didn't have a secondary bridge, I can't imagine...but I digress.


Stupid imperial ship builders, you would think after hundreds of years...

Damn, I’m a nerd…as if any doubt remained…
 
The Mark said:
If I recall correctly, I believe he's talking about the SSD that lost its bridge and went into an out of control dive into the DS2 after the entire rebel fleet focused fire on it, causing the shields in the bridge area (if I recall, and Imp officer stated something along the lines of "bridge deflectors are down", and the ship captain instructed that they should focus defensive fire to prevent anything from hitting the bridge - "focus all defensive firepower, I don't want anything getting through...Too late!!!" *Boom*) to go down (temporarily, I think), whereupon an out of control A-Wing suicided (unintentionally, I think) into the bridge.

Why the hell they didn't have a secondary bridge, I can't imagine...but I digress.


Stupid imperial ship builders, you would think after hundreds of years...

Damn, I’m a nerd…as if any doubt remained…
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I already shot him down using the same argument, including quoting the actual movie script, but he was strangely silent on the matter. In fact, he's fairly silent on anything to which he can't answer, "Nuh uh! Warp Drive!"
 
Ikari said:
It was a particle deflector shield, of course they couldn't physically get through it. It's the same as when on Hoth, they had to destroy the shield generators before they could launch the full ground invasion of the Rebel fortress.

I always wondered why they never made a shield generator which was inside the shield it generated.
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You recall incorrectly…

If memory serves, they launched a ground assault because the Hoth shield generator (which WAS inside the protective field it produced) was powerful enough to preclude a space bombardment to wipe out the rebels, necessitating a ground assault – someone can probably find the exact script conversations between Darth and various Imp officers.
 
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theangryamerican said:
executing hard turns through thousands of tightly grouped Imperial battle formations
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hypocritical to ask goobie to prove that the Federation can do something against a formation that you haven't proven the Empire uses.
 
I like how heated and serious a debate about a fictional battle between fictional governments has become.
 
theangryamerican said:
They already have. It's accepted SW canon, it's just not canon according to Goobie, cuz it takes away his one and only talking point. :)
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it's a BS capability/ship that some goober pulled out of his ass to use in discussions like this and all the rest of the SW is better dweebs agreed it was canon. which is why I continue to insist that if it didn't happen on screen or could be logically deduced/implied from events that happened on screen, it doesn't count.
 
OscarB63 said:
hypocritical to ask goobie to prove that the Federation can do something against a formation that you haven't proven the Empire uses.
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I already gave you examples. Everytime you see more than one Imperial ship they are in relatively close proximity. :shrug:
 
theangryamerican said:
I already gave you examples. Everytime you see more than one Imperial ship they are in relatively close proximity. :shrug:
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not the same thing. goobie has given you examples of groups of fed ships attacking from warp, which you promptly dismissed because they didn't satisfy your criteria exactly. either you accept goobie's example as valid or you give an example of "thousands of tightly grouped Imperial battle formations".

it really is that simple
 
Ikari said:
I like how heated and serious a debate about a fictional battle between fictional governments has become.
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*sigh* Yeah, I noticed. This topic never ends well on any board it's discussed. Rabid, unyielding opinions on both sides.



Well, I believe I've said my piece and no opinions are going to change. We've been going in circles for at least the last 15 pages, so I'm going to bow out. The poll says the Federation wins regardless of the debate here and since this is in Polls, I defer to that. Thanks for the fun, gents. :)
 
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Yeah. In the end, I love Star Wars well more than I love Star Trek. But the Federation would wipe the floor with the Empire. The Empire is stupid and ineffective. I mean they got beat by Ewoks. Nuff said.
 
Goobieman said:
Given the target's inability to manuver and its ability to target the ships while at warp, what advantage is there to fight at warp?
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If you admit that ST weapons can be fired from a stationary target and hit ships which are in warp, why do you assume that SW weapons couldn't do the same thing. While they are clearly different weapons systems, they are both directed-energy weapons and they both propagate slower than the speed of light. If federation weapons could hit targets in warp while not in warp themselves, why couldn't imperial weapons hit targets in warp while not in warp themselves.

Let's add a couple more things that debunk this myth. Federation ships have been shown to not operate well in large gravity wells (See the episode Relics). It has also been shown that anti-gravity technology can be used to keep a ship from going to warp (see the episode Once more unto the breech). It's likely that, given the length of time it would take the federation to destroy the empire, the empire could find a way to counter a federation ship's ability to go to warp (in fact, outside the movies, such technology already exists, interdictor cruisers).

Even if they couldn't, the imperials could always capture some federation ships and reverse-engineer their warp drives, so that they could counter the tactic that way.

Even WITH the assumption that in the initial stages of the war federation ships could attack imperial ships from warp with complete safety, that advantage would be negated eventually, and let's face it, the imperials have plenty of time. Given the speed of federation warp drives, the only way this war will end quickly is if the imperials win.
 
Goobieman said:
Really, the point is that such a huge ship apparently has extraordinary vulnerabilities.
The Enterprise, even after taking close range shots thru down shields, from an enemy that knew exactly where to hit her, was able to continue to fight.
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Remember that Ackbar ordered every ship in the rebel fleet to fire on the SSD, and they had quite a few large capital ships. Even then, they were only able to take down the shields over a very small portion of the ship.

Now granted, the fact that they either A, did not have a backup bridge, or B, it took them long enough for the backup bridge to take control (maybe 30 seconds to a minute) for the ship to maneuver out of control into the death star is a design flaw, but I'd hardly call it an extraordinary vulnerability.
 
not part of the who is better arguement..but a general question/obseration.

the empire had the design for the 1st DS in EP2, started construction in EP3 they had just finished it in EP4. assuming that Luke was ~20 years old at the time of EP4, it took the empire around 20 years to build the first death star. EP6 expects us to believe that they were somehow able to build the 2nd death star, which was much larger than the 1st, in only a few months. WTF????

I understand that in reality it is due to the advances in film/movie/CGI technology from the late 70s, early 80s to the 2000s. but it appears that the Empire and the SW universe in general was more advanced during EPs 1-3 than it was in 4-6.

That was/is one of my biggest complaints/disappointments with SW. It seems that Lucas et al didn't do a very good job of ensuring that there were no contradictions between events from IV-VI and I-III.


a couple of glaring examples

EP6 - Luke and Leah talking, Leah remembers her "real" mother...who died in child birth near the end of EP3
EP4 - Obi wan appears to be an old man in his 70s when it had only been ~20 years since EP3. He would've had to have been in his 40s/50s at the end of EP3(which he obviously was not) in order to be an old man in EP4.

Vader aka Annakin SKYWALKER must have suffered severe brain damage to not realize almost immediately that a guy named Luke SKYWALKER from Tatooine, his own home planet, who just happend to be hanging out with his old mentor, Kenobi, was his kid. why did it take him until midway thru EP5 and having the Emporer tell him to make him realize it?
 
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The Mark said:
If Fed weapons can hit Fed ships in warp, then it would seem at least possible that Imperial ships can hit Fed ships in warp. Especially because there is no indication (as far as I know) that Fed photon torpedoes are FTL in speed...
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There are scenes where a FTL ship fire a photon and phasers at a ship in front of her - thus, photons and phasers must travel FTL, else they would quickly fall behind the firing ship.

(except in that they hit a ship traveling at warp, but the trajectory could have been planned to place the torpedo on target with where the ship would be)
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This, if even possible, requires fire control that can see the target ship in real time so that you have some hope of guessing where the target will be in the time it takes the weapon to get there - and even then, if the FTL target isnt approacing the firing ship, no shot is possible.

Further, I would argue that the SW FTL travel method is different from the ST FTL travel method - I think the SW FTL method precludes exchanges of fire.
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As far as that goes - hyperspace precludes everything, including manuver.

While the ST FTL method (as demonstrated by your statements) allows it.
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As demonstrated by canon, yes.

If the Fed vs. Empire conflict was prolonged, I could see the Empire designing a ship class specifically as an "anti-warp-ship" platform.
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You still run into the FC issue - you cannot target what you cannot see.
And, in any case, the issue is what the Empire/Feds have, not that they might have later.
 
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molten_dragon said:
If you admit that ST weapons can be fired from a stationary target and hit ships which are in warp, why do you assume that SW weapons couldn't do the same thing.
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Because stationary ST weapons systems expect to have FTL targets, and have FTL weapons to shoot a them. Imperial systems, stationary or ship-based, do not and do not.

While they are clearly different weapons systems, they are both directed-energy weapons and they both propagate slower than the speed of light.
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Phasers, photons, disruptors are all FTL weapons. Lasers are not.
One of my previous cites shows a Klingon cruiser approacing the Enterprise at Warp 9, firing disruptors as she came, and hitting before she arrived.

If federation weapons could hit targets in warp while not in warp themselves, why couldn't imperial weapons hit targets in warp while not in warp themselves.
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I can only give this answer so many times before reaching the conclusion that you choose to not listen:
There is absolutely no evidence that Imperial FC and weapn systems have the ability to track or shoot anything moving FTL. If the capability is not demonstrated, then there is no way to argue that it exists.

Let's add a couple more things that debunk this myth. Federation ships have been shown to not operate well in large gravity wells (See the episode Relics).
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Except, of course, for the Enterprise (and a Bird of Prey) using the gravity well of the sun to slingshot herself back in time...

Even if they couldn't, the imperials could always capture some federation ships and reverse-engineer their warp drives, so that they could counter the tactic that way.
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Aside from the fact is the discussion is about what each side has, not what they could have, if...
How do you capture ships you cannot shoot at?

Even WITH the assumption that in the initial stages of the war federation ships could attack imperial ships from warp with complete safety, that advantage would be negated eventually, and let's face it, the imperials have plenty of time.
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See above.
Aside from that, the Imperials have a much shorter clock than you think, given that it only takes a single, small Federation ship to destory a systems, which she can do without anyone even knowing she is there.
 
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molten_dragon said:
Now granted, the fact that they either A, did not have a backup bridge, or B, it took them long enough for the backup bridge to take control (maybe 30 seconds to a minute) for the ship to maneuver out of control into the death star is a design flaw, but I'd hardly call it an extraordinary vulnerability.
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:shock:
A catastrophic loss from a infintessimally small amount of damage is an extraoridary vulnerability if there ever was one.
 
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