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Federation v Empire

In a war between the Federation and the Empire, who wins?

  • Total voters
    32
theangryamerican said:
With both the Federation and the Empire at their full capacity and strength, however, the Federation gets wiped from the galaxy post-haste.
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The only thing the Empire has is strategic speed, to a questionable degree.
Without the ability to defend itself from Fed ships and weapons, the Empire dies.
 
OscarB63 said:
right peaceful race who refused to allow anyone to fight...hence the use of the phrase "game over" no one wins because the Organians wouldn't let them fight.
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Again, that’s not what we’re debating. I didn’t start the topic, it’s not my fault you can’t bring all your toys to the fight. :2razz: However, disabling weapons does not prevent someone from using the Force…

but if you want technical merits... you are going to have to revise all the SW shield and weapons outputs down...since as they currently stand they are greater than the energy their reactors can produce. :shrug:
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Please prove your points without making blanket statements. Admittedly, I’m no expert mathematician, but the stats of the average Imperial Star Destroyer here don’t seem out of line at all. Care to enlighten me?

Imperial I-class Star Destroyer - Wookieepedia, the Star Wars Wiki


Goobieman said:
To the Empire, this is a top-of-line captal ship.
To the Federation, it is a large, slow target.
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Actually, the Interdictor is a support ship, not as heavily armed as the Imperial I-class or II-class Star Destroyer that are seen in the movies. Nevertheless, it still packs more firepower and shielding than any Federation ship. The key benefit of the Interdictor is that it negates your Warp Drive that you’ve been ineffectively touting for the last few posts. You can’t run. You can’t outfly us. Time to eat some turbolaser, bud.

Further, your dismissal of anything that is not in the movies is ridiculous, as they are not the only accepted canon in the Star Wars universe, that according to Lucasfilm. It’s not our fault that your ST authors can’t write coherent books. Even with that caveat, I’ll gladly address anything in your universe you think might be relevant.


OK, here's what I found:

Sun Crusher - Wookieepedia, the Star Wars Wiki

Really?
Isn't this a little far out, even for Sci-Fi?
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More far out than Organians? If you don't like our weapons, you're free to concede at any time.
 
theangryamerican said:
Actually, the Interdictor is a support ship, not as heavily armed as the Imperial I-class or II-class Star Destroyer that are seen in the movies. Nevertheless, it still packs more firepower and shielding than any Federation ship. The key benefit of the Interdictor is that it negates your Warp Drive that you’ve been ineffectively touting for the last few posts. You can’t run. You can’t outfly us. Time to eat some turbolaser, bud.
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You mean it negates hyeprdrive. How do you know it negates warp drive?
As I said - large, slow target.

Further, your dismissal of anything that is not in the movies is ridiculous...
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Only the movies/TV shows are inarguable canon. Thus, they are the only inarguable primary source materail and the only informatiion that need be considered..

If you don't like our weapons, you're free to concede at any time.
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There's no reason to concede agianst weapons that cannot cause harm...
 
Goobieman said:
You mean it negates hyeprdrive. How do you know it negates warp drive?
As I said - large, slow target.
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Nope, your Warp Drive would be useless, but I was hoping you'd try to make that differentiation. The large domes on the hull of the Interdictor are gravity well generators, meant to pull passing ships back in to normal space. There have been several examples when a large gravitational anomaly pulled ships out of warp in the ST universe.

The gravity well of the Dyson sphere in Relics forced the Enterprise-D out of warp, even though its surface gravity level was no higher than Earth-normal gravity.
Further evidence of warp drive vulnerability to gravity wells is seen in Once More Unto the Breach when Worf used an inverse graviton beam (an anti-gravity beam) to keep Jem'Hadar warships from going to warp.



Only the movies/TV shows are inarguable canon. Thus, they are the only inarguable primary source materail and the only informatiion that need be considered.
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This is a false statement, as the determining factor for canon is the governing body, specifically Paramount and Lucasfilm, respectively. Lucasfilm has specifically stated that other source material outside of the movies is also canon as long as it adheres to their guidelines. I’m sorry you don’t like that, but them’s the breaks. You can’t ignore something because you don’t think it should be considered.


Keep going though, I was both a huge ST and SW fan in my younger years and my nerdom is more powerful than you can possibly imagine. ;)
 
theangryamerican said:
Nope, your Warp Drive would be useless, but I was hoping you'd try to make that differentiation. The large domes on the hull of the Interdictor are gravity well generators, meant to pull passing ships back in to normal space. There have been several examples when a large gravitational anomaly pulled ships out of warp in the ST universe.
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ST ships have hovered over and flown across the deck of a -star- at warp speed.
For that matter, ST ships have used the gravity well of a star to slingshot themselves back in time.
Your non-canon ship-based gravity well generator need not apply.

This is a false statement, as the determining factor for canon is the governing body...
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According to you. You dont have to like that the discussion is limited to what is seen ion the screen, but thems the breaks.
 
Goobieman said:
ST ships have hovered over and flown across the deck of a -star- at warp speed.
For that matter, ST ships have used the gravity well of a star to slingshot themselves back in time.
Your non-canon ship-based gravity well generator need not apply.
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I specifically provided you with examples supporting my point. You want to refute it?

According to you. You dont have to like that the discussion is limited to what is seen ion the screen, but thems the breaks.
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According to George Lucas... but what does he know? Btw, since you started this, show me where in your Op you specified on-screen only.

You can't change the rules to your own game half-way through, Ensign.
 
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theangryamerican said:
I specifically provided you with examples supporting my point. You want to refute it?
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I did. Warp drive is operable while in exceptionally close proximity to a star.

Further, it was previously noted that we were discussing ST in the time of Kirk. TNG examples are thus inapplicable - which, given the jack-assery of the series, only increases the Federation's chanes against the Empire.
:mrgreen:

According to George Lucas... but what does he know?
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Exactly. Thank you.
Whats on screen in inarguable. Period.

Btw, since you started this, show me where in your Op you specified on-screen only.
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I didn't- but then I didn't need to, as it was specified as soon as the issue came up.
 
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Goobieman said:
I did. Warp drive is operable while in exceptionally close proximity to a star.

Further, it was previously noted that we were discussing ST in the time of Kirk. TNG examples are thus inapplicable - which, given the jack-assery of the series, only increases the Federation's chanes against the Empire.
:mrgreen:


Exactly. Thank you.
Whats on screen in inarguable. Period.


I didn't- but then I didn't need to, as it was specified as soon as the issue came up.
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It's amusing that you're the only one insisting on employing ever-increasing requirements on this debate. Your first post said Federation v. Empire. Period. When shown proof that your position is untenable, you try to use caveats to improperly tip the playing field in your favor. (Which still ain't gonna help you, chief) To this point, the entire summary of your response to any argument posed against you is “nuh uh.” Laughable, at best, Sir.

Btw, you do know that Roddenberry himself stated that TNG is the final authority on ST canon when it comes to resolving discrepancies in the ST universe. It supersedes TOS. His words…not mine.
 
theangryamerican said:
It's amusing that you're the only one insisting on employing ever-increasing requirements on this debate.
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People asked questions about the specific parameters of the discussion, and I responded with those specifics. If you don't want to have the conversation within the parameters set by those answers, then your contributions here are meaningless.
:shrug:
 
Goobieman said:
People asked questions about the specific parameters of the discussion, and I responded with those specifics. If you don't want to have the conversation within the parameters set by those answers, then your contributions here are meaningless.
:shrug:
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You didn’t mention Kirk until 65 posts into the discussion. Sorry, I missed that at first. My apologies. Unless I’m mistaken though, you didn’t specify a time period for SW…

You realize that you signed your own death warrant with that, right? Earlier you acknowledged that the Empire had more powerful weapon systems, but couldn’t bring them to bear thanks to your warp-drive.

Goobieman said:
Read this before, good for a laugh.
Fire control - its all about fire control. If you can't get a firing solution, the power of your weapons doesn't matter.
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I shot down your one claimed advantage easily and you refuse to accept it because my ST examples weren’t specific to your time period?

You’re claiming that the warp systems in TNG became…worse? The way a warp drive functions changed? Lol.

Never mind the fact that you’re arguing not only against SW canon, but your own ST canon as well… *sigh*
 
theangryamerican said:
You didn’t mention Kirk until 65 posts into the discussion....
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Once someone asked. Yes. Just like I said.

Sorry, I missed that at first. My apologies. Unless I’m mistaken though, you didn’t specify a time period for SW…
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Sure I did. 'What you see on screen' defines a specific time period.

You realize that you signed your own death warrant with that, right? Earlier you acknowledged that the Empire had more powerful weapon systems...
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I mane no such acnowledgement.

...but couldn’t bring them to bear thanks to your warp-drive.
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Kinda hard to do when your FC cannot track and your weapons cannot catch their target

I shot down your one claimed advantage easily...
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Except that your 'example' isnt canon, and even if it were, it is negated by canon to the contrary.
 
Goobieman said:
Once someone asked. Yes. Just like I said.


Sure I did. 'What you see on screen' defines a specific time period.


I mane no such acnowledgement.


Kinda hard to do when your FC cannot track and your weapons cannot catch their target


Except that your 'example' isnt canon, and even if it were, it is negated by canon to the contrary.
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Like I said...

Never mind the fact that you’re arguing not only against SW canon, but your own ST canon as well… *sigh*
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If you can't be bothered to play by the rules, this really is pointless. I like how you edited your quotes to get rid of any argument you can't readily dismiss, though. That was classy.
 
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OscarB63 said:
but if you want technical merits... you are going to have to revise all the SW shield and weapons outputs down...since as they currently stand they are greater than the energy their reactors can produce. :shrug:
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This is a ridiculous claim. The most accurate estimates of reactor power output are based upon weapon output, since weapon output can be calculated based on things which are seen on-screen. If you'd like to argue that those calculations were performed incorrectly, then please feel free to, but saying that SW reactors don't produce enough power to support their weapons is ridiculous, since they are demonstrably able to do just that.
 
Goobieman said:
The Feds dont have to crush every planet, just the important ones.
Given the effort needed to do so - virtually none- there's no reason they cannot succeed at such an effort.
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In a government of a million systems, there's going to be a lot of important ones. Face it. The empire can afford to fight a war of attrition, the federation can't. Even if the federation won 90% of the battles that were fought, they'd still lose the war.
 
Goobieman said:
Maybe I missed your response - what have you seen on-screen that supports the claim that a single shot from the turret of a transport has a 200GT yield?
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Actually, I don't support that figure, it seems ridiculously high. I do support the estimates based on the scene in TESB where the star destroyer is vaporizing asteroids in the hoth asteroid belt, as well as some other estimates based on things shown on-screen, which comes out to something between 5 and 50 megatons per shot.

Federation phasers put out something around the same amount of energy, but star destroyers carry more guns and can fire more often.

Goobieman said:
Yeah, but that's meaningless if the the Imperial ships are the only ones getting hit.
That a rather impressive dismissal of an exceptional detail.
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I dismiss the idea of federation ships fighting solely from warp, because what's shown on-screen doesn't support it. It's been shown that they are capable of doing so, but the vast majority of battles shown in star trek are at sublight speeds. If fighting from warp all the time was possible, and was their most effective tactic, they'd do it all the time. Since they don't, there must be a good reason why the fight at sublight speeds. It might help, but I don't see it being the overwhelming advantage you think it is.
 
molten_dragon said:
This is a ridiculous claim. The most accurate estimates of reactor power output are based upon weapon output, since weapon output can be calculated based on things which are seen on-screen. If you'd like to argue that those calculations were performed incorrectly, then please feel free to, but saying that SW reactors don't produce enough power to support their weapons is ridiculous, since they are demonstrably able to do just that.
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you can make up fictional numbers to support any claim of fictional events that happened on screen. IMHO, for the purposes of these type discussions, if it didn't happen on screen, it doesn't count. super excelsior golden gloves hovercraft star destroyer happy meals with gravity well generators and blow job dispensing machines did not exist in any of the 6 SW movies, therefore you don't get to count them.
 
molten_dragon said:
In a government of a million systems, there's going to be a lot of important ones. Face it. The empire can afford to fight a war of attrition, the federation can't. Even if the federation won 90% of the battles that were fought, they'd still lose the war.
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where the hell does this notion that the empire is made up of millions of systems come from? someone point me to the fan fiction or novel in which this is stated. from what could be gathered on screen there were nowhere near 1,000,000. basically the empire took over the old republic and from the views of the senate chamber there were maybe 20-30K systems represented.

that's one reason I think the Fed would kick the Empire's ass. Empire supporters feel the need to exaggerate its power in order to advance their claim.
 
OscarB63 said:
you can make up fictional numbers to support any claim of fictional events that happened on screen. IMHO, for the purposes of these type discussions, if it didn't happen on screen, it doesn't count. super excelsior golden gloves hovercraft star destroyer happy meals with gravity well generators and blow job dispensing machines did not exist in any of the 6 SW movies, therefore you don't get to count them.
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Canon is canon. Don't like it, talk to Lucasfilm or Paramount, but you can't change it.

Btw... I just had to...
20090313-debtstar5rk3.jpg
 
OscarB63 said:
IMHO, for the purposes of these type discussions, if it didn't happen on screen, it doesn't count.
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It did happen on screen. There were certain scenes which showed turbolasers doing things which allow the amount of energy they were putting out to be calculated. The scene in TESB where the star destroyer is firing on the asteroids is one of the best.

Read this page and come back when you're done.
 
OscarB63 said:
where the hell does this notion that the empire is made up of millions of systems come from? someone point me to the fan fiction or novel in which this is stated. from what could be gathered on screen there were nowhere near 1,000,000. basically the empire took over the old republic and from the views of the senate chamber there were maybe 20-30K systems represented.

that's one reason I think the Fed would kick the Empire's ass. Empire supporters feel the need to exaggerate its power in order to advance their claim.
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I can't find a video of it on youtube, but the quote is from A New Hope, when tarkin is talking to leia before he blows up Alderaan.

This station is the final link in the new-forged Imperial chain which will bind the million systems of the Galactic Empire together once and for all.
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molten_dragon said:
I can't find a video of it on youtube, but the quote is from A New Hope, when tarkin is talking to leia before he blows up Alderaan.
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It's in the ANH novelization. Exact same wording.

Tarkin declares the Death Star "is the final link in the new-forged Imperial chain which will bind the million systems of the Galactic Empire together once and for all."
 
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We seem to have a dispute as too what, exactly, is the allowed sources for info to compare.

I was under the impression that it was as yet undetermined.

But Goobieman seems to be saying it's only what you see in the movies and TV shows.

A question in regards to that, then - what about documents with more detailed info on entities and objects in the movie/TV series?

Can that info be used?

Such as, this random tidbit of info found here, which seems to indicate that the X-Wing used the same laser cannons as those used for main cannon in the AT-AT.

For that matter, I believe Goobieman mentioned "only what you see on screen".

I assume that does NOT include a computer screen, since that would VASTLY expand the available material.
 
theangryamerican said:
If you can't be bothered to play by the rules, this really is pointless.
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If that were the case, you'd have a point.
Its not, so you don't. The parameters of the discussion are clear; if you don't want to discuss the topic withing those parameters, then you're simply wasting everyone's time.
 
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