View Poll Results: Did all the great ideas of the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries need government?

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  • Joe is absolutely correct

    10 19.61%
  • Joe is absolutely incorrect

    34 66.67%
  • Other (Explain)

    7 13.73%
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Thread: Joe Biden: Great ideas of the last 200 years needed government

  1. #71
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    Re: Joe Biden: Great ideas of the last 200 years needed government

    Quote Originally Posted by Whovian View Post
    Al should stick to hunting for Man-Bear-Pig.
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    Re: Joe Biden: Great ideas of the last 200 years needed government

    Quote Originally Posted by Whovian View Post
    SOME is a fair statement. EVERY SINGLE is not. WOuld you agree then that Biden was incorrect?
    Without a doubt, Biden was incorrect. Sadly there seems to be some sort of anti-invention movement going on in the US. It feels like progress is being stalled because too many people feel that the government should be the one doing it or no one else. And that is a bad thing.

  3. #73
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    Re: Joe Biden: Great ideas of the last 200 years needed government

    Quote Originally Posted by Whovian View Post
    Don't mock the Mach. Anyway, that's one of hndreds upon hundreds of great ideas that the federal government had zip to do with.
    What we do need is balance. Things being out of balanced caused this recent and on-going depression.
    In many areas, our governments have gone too far,IMO.
    In other areas(financial regulation) NOT far enough.
    In truth, our governments have directly and indirectly contributed to all of the inventions.
    I think the problem is that we have anti-government people who are unwilling to look at things , deeply.

  4. #74
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    Re: Joe Biden: Great ideas of the last 200 years needed government

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    In truth, our governments have directly and indirectly contributed to all of the inventions.
    I think the problem is that we have anti-government people who are unwilling to look at things , deeply.
    Simply untrue, as has been pointed out numerous times in this thread.

    I think the real problem is that we have pro-government people who are unwilling to look at things , realistically.

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    Re: Joe Biden: Great ideas of the last 200 years needed government

    Quote Originally Posted by Awesome!
    My advice would be to read Biden's book: Promises to Keep. Amazon is selling for 2.60 from the original 25.95 retail. Such a small price to learn about the man, the essence that makes Joe Biden, the intellectual, the storyteller, the American hero and brilliant government mind...Our country owe's a debt to this legend...
    Quote Originally Posted by Whovian View Post
    What exactly has he done that makes him an 'American Hero'? Specifically. No generalities please.

    As for 'brilliant government mind', this is the man that wanted to split Iraq into three different parts, remember? Brilliant is pretty much the opposite of Joe Biden.
    cricket... cricket... cricket...

  6. #76
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    Re: Joe Biden: Great ideas of the last 200 years needed government

    Quote Originally Posted by Whovian View Post
    Why dont 'you' address your incorrect assertions about the list you provided, which has been counterpointed twice in this thread? Not willing to defend your own statements?
    Oh noes, you didn't get a response for 10 whole hours! Sorry I wasn't at your beck and call all night long. If you want that, you'll need to find yourself a hooker. Now then:

    Quote Originally Posted by Whovian View Post
    You need to remove telephone from your list. The government had nothing to do with it's creation, nor with the telephone system itself (lines, switchers, etc...) That was all BELL
    The Evolution of the Telephone System
    I'll give you that one. I was under the impression that most of the phone lines were mostly publicly owned, but apparently not. Nevertheless, government still plays an important role in the industry. The logistics of it made it such that the government needed to regulate it so that carriers are interconnected with one another. Otherwise there would be no incentive for carriers to want to link their networks and invite competition onto their turf.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whovian
    Airports needs to come off too. The first commercial airports were privately built, owned and operated.
    This is irrelevant. I'm not talking about a couple of cleared fields used for rickety airplanes, I'm talking about the overall infrastructure. Airplanes could not have become as successful as they did without government investment in airports. Even today this would be implausible. Even the best airlines are just barely turning a profit (while most of them seem to perennially hover near bankruptcy). They would be totally incapable of profitably running airports. Not to mention all of the practical problems that would present, with airlines refusing each other access to their airports and whatnot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whovian
    The electric 'grid' was private enterprise too...
    History of electric power transmission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Again, I'm not necessarily talking about the absolute first movers. I'm referring more to the popularization of the technology. Without the government playing a regulatory role in the industry, it could not have flourished. The electric industry lends itself to natural monopolies, and so the government is necessary to step in and prevent corporate abuses. Furthermore, the government is necessary to coordinate the design of the power grid so that the entire country doesn't get hit by a blackout (which still happens more often than it should). Private industry does not have the incentive to do this; let some other sucker do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whovian
    Certainly, the government helped in some areas, some more than others,
    Most certainly. At least 8 of the 9 on my list, and really 8.5 because the government did play SOME role in telephony, albeit not as large as in all the other inventions I cited as the most important of the modern world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whovian
    but to say 'EVERY' is simply incorrect. To defend the error out of partisanship, is immature.
    Except I haven't "defended the error" at all, because as I've repeatedly mentioned, I really don't give a damn because I'm not a partisan hack. I'm more interested in discussing the government's role in technology than I am in parsing Joe Biden's choice of words. Whether he misspoke or exaggerated or whatever is petty and stupid, and I really don't care.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 10-29-10 at 02:49 PM.
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  7. #77
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    Re: Joe Biden: Great ideas of the last 200 years needed government

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    The other way to look at these items you posted are that they are some of the most highly regulated, taxed and skimmed money makers for government. These regulations have given the government the excuse to increase the size of the bureaucracy by leaps and bounds. For example, the FCC regulating access to the internet, as well as Television and Radio. Yet, the government did little to actually incentivize the CREATION of radio and television.
    No, but they did a lot to incentivize the POPULARIZATION of those technologies, which is what really matters. Creating an amazing new technology is meaningless if no one uses it. If the FCC didn't regulate television and radio, there would be nothing stopping people from broadcasting over top of one another. This would create a jumbled mess, make the experience worse for the audience, and ultimately make the technologies impractical.

    As for the internet...that evolved out of ARPAnet, which was entirely a government project funded by the US military. Like many cool things the military does, it came out of DARPA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham
    The only thing I can credit them with is identifying these things as money makers and then regulating them and increasing their power over them. Then we have airplanes --- TSA, FAA, and a few more alphabet soup organizations. Telephone? FCC again. Electricity - well the EPA is involved recently, and of course there's the Dept. of Energy. Antibiotics? There's tons of health organizations doing oversight and control over anything from asprin to drugs used for lethal injections.
    That's not simply a matter of the government increasing their power over them just because they can. There are practical reasons for all of those regulations. They may not always be handled in the ideal manner, but there is a reason those things are regulated. There are plenty of big money-making industries that are not regulated nearly as heavily.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham
    I'm not saying the FAA isn't needed, or that the Dept. of Energy is a waste ... certainly a portion of these regulations are for safety and there are positives that go along with them. The by product though, is a vast bureaucracy regulating every and all things. There is not, one thing in your or anyone's house in the United States that is not regulated. From stuffed animals, to the timber or wall board, light bulbs, computer, and paint --- ALL of it is regulated. I submit all of that power is not needed and to go full circle back to the original point --- those regulations are not incentives for the creation of the product or that government can take credit for invention or innovations that were put forth. Government simply stepped in and passed laws regulating these things primarily to make money on them, and secondarily to claim such regulations are required for "safety" reasons. Therefore government, according to Pete Stark, can do anything they want.
    This is getting a bit off track because we're now talking about whether or not government regulation of product quality is necessary to protect public safety, which is far different than whether or not government regulation of blockbuster inventions is necessary for them to become popular and improve overall well-being.
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  8. #78
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    Re: Joe Biden: Great ideas of the last 200 years needed government

    From the ashes.

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    Re: Joe Biden: Great ideas of the last 200 years needed government

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    No, but they did a lot to incentivize the POPULARIZATION of those technologies, which is what really matters.
    You're actually trying to say that the inventions themselves did not matter, it was the government making them popular that mattered?

    Seriously?

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    Re: Joe Biden: Great ideas of the last 200 years needed government

    Any number of inventions from this gentleman.

    George Washington Carver - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    From the ashes.

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