View Poll Results: Did all the great ideas of the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries need government?

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    10 19.61%
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    34 66.67%
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Thread: Joe Biden: Great ideas of the last 200 years needed government

  1. #111
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    Re: Joe Biden: Great ideas of the last 200 years needed government

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    People did do these things though, way before the invention of cars there were roads, both formal and informal.
    Yes but they've always been funded (or at least planned) by the government. Especially within cities.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 10-29-10 at 10:37 PM.
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  2. #112
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    Re: Joe Biden: Great ideas of the last 200 years needed government

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    The roads (or more likely, paths and tracks) would exist due to the use of wagons and horses - it wouldn't be "random fields and forests", unless you were way the hell off the "beaten path"...Which, come to think of it, is a saying that proves my point, to an extent.

    And sure as hell, I bet wagons and horses navigated randomly around buildings...Why not cars?
    Because that model of infrastructure is impractical, as any attempt to navigate a city in Sub-Saharan Africa shows.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark
    Given enough horse and wagon traffic, I would bet some kind of traffic control arose...despite there being no cars.
    That traffic control would also have been the result of government intervention though.
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  3. #113
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    Re: Joe Biden: Great ideas of the last 200 years needed government

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Because that model of infrastructure is impractical, as any attempt to navigate a city in Sub-Saharan Africa shows.
    With that comment and my next one, I was attempting to say that with enough of any traffic, be it motorized or not, would probably cause some type of traffic control/better road construction/placement to occur.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    That traffic control would also have been the result of government intervention though.
    Why?

    Could not there be a privately funded traffic control system, in some area? What precludes any such occurrence?
    Education.

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  4. #114
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    Re: Joe Biden: Great ideas of the last 200 years needed government

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Yes but they've always been funded (or at least planned) by the government. Especially within cities.
    Coincidentally, they usually have the worst traffic problems.
    Doesn't say a whole lot for central planning.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  5. #115
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    Re: Joe Biden: Great ideas of the last 200 years needed government

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Could not there be a privately funded traffic control system, in some area? What precludes any such occurrence?
    What profit incentive exists for a private entity to plan and build roads? And how do you coordinate the efforts between multiple such entities?
    Last edited by Kandahar; 10-30-10 at 04:48 AM.
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  6. #116
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    Re: Joe Biden: Great ideas of the last 200 years needed government

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Yes, it does work because if it is a day or a year doesn't matter (notice the biblical reference?). You must recoup costs of R&D, and you will not before you are pushed out of the market. Developing a new product or process would always be a loss without IP except when the biggest distributor innovates.
    stiffled
    Without IP, private innovation or invention ceases for all practical purpose. End of story.
    Err no. Empirical research by James Bessen and Michael J. Meurer "Do patents perform like property?" (2008) suggests that patent law does not have any positive relationship on the rate of innovation.

  7. #117
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    Re: Joe Biden: Great ideas of the last 200 years needed government

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post

    That traffic control would also have been the result of government intervention though.
    Traffic control is a result of more vehicles - yet dirt roads were used before paved or stone ones. As you see in this video, there was no traffic control and out of this 7 minutes I didn't see anyone run over or accidents occur.

    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  8. #118
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    Re: Joe Biden: Great ideas of the last 200 years needed government

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Traffic control is a result of more vehicles
    Yes. In other words, more vehicles (and a successful auto industry) would not be possible without traffic control.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham
    yet dirt roads were used before paved or stone ones.
    They were still planned and maintained by government.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham
    As you see in this video, there was no traffic control and out of this 7 minutes I didn't see anyone run over or accidents occur.

    There also weren't as many cars on the road then. And what makes you think there was no traffic control there? I see a road. I see at least some basic traffic laws generally being obeyed (e.g. drive on the right side).
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  9. #119
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    Re: Joe Biden: Great ideas of the last 200 years needed government

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Yes. In other words, more vehicles (and a successful auto industry) would not be possible without traffic control.
    They were still planned and maintained by government.

    There also weren't as many cars on the road then. And what makes you think there was no traffic control there? I see a road. I see at least some basic traffic laws generally being obeyed (e.g. drive on the right side).[/QUOTE]

    Actually, traffic control is one of the worst ideas to ever come to roads. Take a look at this thread I made on this very subject. I think you'll find the videos and articles very enlightening.

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/off-to...rsections.html

    40,000 people a year (pretty sure that's the number) die on government roads every year. That's not exactly indicative of a successful system.

    http://mises.org/books/roads_web.pdf

    And as for companies profitting off of the maintaining and running of roads, see the Dulles Greenway and the English Turnpike system.

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  10. #120
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    Re: Joe Biden: Great ideas of the last 200 years needed government

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Yes. In other words, more vehicles (and a successful auto industry) would not be possible without traffic control.
    You seem under a sort of delusion. Vehicls were already successful without government controlled roads or traffic control.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    They were still planned and maintained by government.
    They were initially animal trails or are you saying the government now controlled animals somehow too? However in 1893 there were government funds used to promote roads - not vehicles like the bicycle or wagon, under the Dept. of Agriculture. In the 1900's there were crys to get vehciles out of the mud to promote more roads but there was no promotion of the vehicles themselves. So you're partially right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    There also weren't as many cars on the road then. And what makes you think there was no traffic control there? I see a road. I see at least some basic traffic laws generally being obeyed (e.g. drive on the right side).
    Laws were not generally implemented until the 1920's through the 1930's. Yes, "Rules of the Road" was written in 1903 but there was no enforcement nor adoption until much later.
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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