View Poll Results: Which should be taught in school science classes?

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  • Evolution

    80 78.43%
  • Intelligent Design

    1 0.98%
  • Creationism

    0 0%
  • Every theory in this area

    11 10.78%
  • Only these 3 or 2 of these three

    3 2.94%
  • None of these

    4 3.92%
  • Other

    3 2.94%
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Thread: Which should be taught in school science classes?

  1. #291
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    Guy Incognito's Avatar
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    Re: Which should be taught in school science classes?

    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    regarding the odds of complex life occurring at random: natural selection acting on random processes is what drives the complexity, not the random events themselves, this is NOT any more random than rolling 50 dice and picking out the 6's and then rerolling the rest, in short order you have 50 die with all 6's.. what are the odds of that happening at random? pretty darn slim, but the results and the 50 dice showing all 6's did not happen randomly, they were selected.
    You're ill-advised to argue against anything I'd say about ID. I'm the ultimate straw man, because I'm not an ID proponent. In fact I share your view about the fine tuning argument. I've never found it very persuasive. Of course the universe is fine tuned for our existence, I mean, we're here, aren't we? But that doesn't logically imply any connection between the tuning of the universe and the existence of life apart from the former providing the framework for the latter.

    But we are addressing the very limited question of whether or not ID theory can be considered science. You're proving that it is by making an attempt at falsifying it.

  2. #292
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    Re: Which should be taught in school science classes?

    One of the claims discussed in the Nagel paper is that the evolution of life is too complex to have occurred by random chance. I don't know anything about high-level statistics, but I'm sure it is possible to devise a way to falsify that theory.
    That isn't a scientific theory. That statement is like looking at a guy who won the lottery and saying "the odds of winning are too small for it to be random chance, he must have cheated with a time machine". It is an absurdly hypocritical statement as it claims a low-probability event can't happen while simultaneously promoting a event that isn't even possible as the solution. Aliens putting life on earth is theoretically possible, but the complexity argument fails as the aliens themselves would have to be created by chance.

  3. #293
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    Re: Which should be taught in school science classes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    But we are addressing the very limited question of whether or not ID theory can be considered science. You're proving that it is by making an attempt at falsifying it.
    Umm no, when they make a claim that life is too complex to be caused through evolution and natural selection, that is arguing against the science and challenging that which is falsifiable.

    When they add "it must be a designer" then it gets into the realm of not falsifiable, but when you show that their initial premise is false, that means their conclusion is not even valid - regardless of whether it is falsifiable or not.

    I did this with the "what are the odds" argument as well, I challenged a false premise addressing that which is falsifiable - that evolution is random - and thus invalidated any attempts to draw a conclusion (inferred or not) based on a false premise
    Last edited by marduc; 10-30-10 at 05:19 PM.
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  4. #294
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    Re: Which should be taught in school science classes?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Am I missing sarcasm?
    No. just another example of what the real world is like, and why bright students get failing grades if they ignore PSAT, strict majority rules.

    In other words, originality in schools is forbidden, and should be, because bright kids with imagination are misfits, don't fit in with the other 99 percent. No, it's not a conspiracy. It's just the way things are.

    What about you, would you rather be a lone genius or the life of the party. No, you can't be both...

    ricksfolly

  5. #295
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    Re: Which should be taught in school science classes?

    Quote Originally Posted by ricksfolly View Post
    No. just another example of what the real world is like, and why bright students get failing grades if they ignore PSAT, strict majority rules.

    In other words, originality in schools is forbidden, and should be, because bright kids with imagination are misfits, don't fit in with the other 99 percent. No, it's not a conspiracy. It's just the way things are.

    What about you, would you rather be a lone genius or the life of the party. No, you can't be both...

    ricksfolly
    Lone geniuses give us progress. Breeding people who only falls in with the crowd? What does that get us?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  6. #296
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    Re: Which should be taught in school science classes?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Lone geniuses give us progress. Breeding people who only falls in with the crowd? What does that get us?
    Geniuses are probably a kind of mutation one kid in a million is born with. That means the other 999,999 kids will always be part of the non-genius consensus crowd, no matter what or how they're bred or taught.

    ricksfolly

  7. #297
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    Re: Which should be taught in school science classes?

    Quote Originally Posted by ricksfolly View Post
    No. just another example of what the real world is like, and why bright students get failing grades if they ignore PSAT, strict majority rules.

    In other words, originality in schools is forbidden, and should be, because bright kids with imagination are misfits, don't fit in with the other 99 percent. No, it's not a conspiracy. It's just the way things are.

    What about you, would you rather be a lone genius or the life of the party. No, you can't be both...

    ricksfolly
    Actually, I think society should find better ways to handle the lone geniuses. In fact, they don't have to be "lone geniuses", not in this day and age. We have plenty of technology and understanding about social/emotional development, even now, to ensure that students who are smart in ways that don't show on tests or who just don't fit in with the average teens, can still learn and contribute to society and better themselves. We should make more schools for those people who don't learn well in traditional ways or find ways to make sure that those teens can get to the schools that teach "outside the box", in ways that are suited for their learning style. We should be trying to better our society by making it possible for all students to better themselves and get a good education, not just the ones that are easiest to teach or best at taking tests.

    And people don't have to fit in with the 99% of society to actually be able to be in society. I have met plenty of people who really didn't fit in, in fact, I could kinda fall in that area myself. That doesn't mean they can't or don't contribute to society. Many find ways, in adulthood, to simply live on the outskirts of society, where they still contribute but they stay in their own world the rest of the time. With the advancement of the internet, many of those guys/girls can not only live their lives the way they want in more desirable ways, but they can also interact with and even meet up with others that are like them.
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  8. #298
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    Re: Which should be taught in school science classes?

    Quote Originally Posted by ricksfolly View Post
    Geniuses are probably a kind of mutation one kid in a million is born with. That means the other 999,999 kids will always be part of the non-genius consensus crowd, no matter what or how they're bred or taught.

    ricksfolly
    So suppress them and make everyone else a sheep while we're at it?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  9. #299
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    Re: Which should be taught in school science classes?

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    That isn't a scientific theory. That statement is like looking at a guy who won the lottery and saying "the odds of winning are too small for it to be random chance, he must have cheated with a time machine".
    That sure sounds like a falsifiable theory to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    It is an absurdly hypocritical statement as it claims a low-probability event can't happen while simultaneously promoting a event that isn't even possible as the solution.
    What is hypocritical about it? Why is impossible about the solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    Aliens putting life on earth is theoretically possible, but the complexity argument fails as the aliens themselves would have to be created by chance.
    Why?

  10. #300
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    Re: Which should be taught in school science classes?

    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    I did this with the "what are the odds" argument as well, I challenged a false premise addressing that which is falsifiable - that evolution is random - and thus invalidated any attempts to draw a conclusion (inferred or not) based on a false premise
    I think you're getting logic mixed up with science. Negation of a premise will make a conclusion invalid, this is a rule of logic. But the negation of a theory doesn't mean the theory ceases to be science. The fact that you have attempted to show a premise upon which the theory rests to be false, you have also proven that the theory itself is science. Thank you for making my point for me.

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