View Poll Results: Would you support a mandatory service when a person turns 21 or 18?

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Thread: Mandatory military service?

  1. #211
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    Re: Mandatory military service?

    Conscription is slavery because one cannot pay for another's life, therefore reasonable comphensation is not possible - that's called being forced to work without pay. It's not a punative action; there is no judgement against the person justifying forced labor. They are simply being forced to work (and to perhaps pay the ultimate price, personally) without fair comphensation (as that is impossible to establish).

    It's different than jury duty, where comphensation for a few hours of work can be calculated to 'whatever'. Let us also note how easy it is to get out of or avoid jury duty; jury duty is hardly an obligation. Jury duty is a token gesture that is avoidable with a few simple words, not a (binding) call to life-threatening sacrifice. Comparing jury duty to military service is not robust.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 11-06-10 at 03:12 AM.

  2. #212
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    Re: Mandatory military service?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Conscription is slavery because one cannot pay for another's life, therefore reasonable comphensation is not possible - that's called being forced to work without pay.
    What are you saying? That all conscripted soldiers will die? Conscription = death?
    "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." - Dr. Carl Sagan

  3. #213
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    Re: Mandatory military service?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Conscription is slavery because one cannot pay for another's life, therefore reasonable comphensation is not possible - that's called being forced to work without pay. It's not a punative action; there is no judgement against the person justifying forced labor. They are simply being forced to work (and to perhaps pay the ultimate price personally) without fair comphensation (as that is impossible to establish).
    Nice job with the quick edit

    What about jury duty, anyone gonna answer that one?
    Last edited by FluffyNinja; 11-06-10 at 03:09 AM.
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  4. #214
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    Re: Mandatory military service?

    It's not a "quick edit", I edit alot to make myself more clear and I can assure you that it was not a reaction to any post of yours. Check the final edit times and your post times, they should verify this.

    Anyway, for those who are conscripted and die... how is fair comphensation arrived at? In private industry, one could sue the company for millions if a family member dies as a result of company action. Are all the dead soldiers gonna get paid millions? No? Then they were slaves (or volunteers). There's no two ways about it - they were not paid market price for employer enduced death.

    During my edits, I addressed the shallowness of the jury duty comparison. It's kinda hard to believe that someone who served would compare that service to jury duty; that's pretty disrespectful of military service (especially during wartime).
    Last edited by ecofarm; 11-06-10 at 03:20 AM.

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    Re: Mandatory military service?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    It's not a "quick edit", I edit alot to make myself more clear and I can assure you that it was not a reaction to any post of yours. Check the final edit times and your post times, they should verify this.

    Anyway, for those who are conscripted and die... how is fair comphensation arrived at? In private industry, one could sue the company for millions if a family member dies as a result of company action. Are all the dead soldiers gonna get paid millions? No? Then they were slaves (or volunteers).
    I fail to see what would be served by paying millions to someone who has died? : However; their surviving beneficiaries will receive benefits.
    "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." - Dr. Carl Sagan

  6. #216
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    Re: Mandatory military service?

    The point is, you cannot value someone's life and that is what you are pretending to buy with conscription. If you can't pay for the labor, it's slavery (or volunteer).
    Last edited by ecofarm; 11-06-10 at 03:22 AM.

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    Re: Mandatory military service?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    It's different than jury duty, where comphensation for a few hours of work can be calculated to 'whatever'. Let us also note how easy it is to get out of or avoid jury duty; jury duty is hardly an obligation. Jury duty is a token gesture that is avoidable with a few simple words, not a (binding) call to life-threatening sacrifice. Comparing jury duty to military service is not robust.
    I'm not comparing the "potential sacrifice" of the two, but rather, am simply appying YOUR definition. You said (before you conveniently edited) that conscripted soldiers were being forced to "work involuntarily". I simply pointed out that sequestered jurors also fit that definition and asked if "slavery" should apply to this situation as well? Now you're changing the "rules of engagement" to fit your own point of view.
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  8. #218
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    Re: Mandatory military service?

    I'm not changing anything.

    The point is not merely "work involuntarily". Grasp the main point, please: "work without fair comphensation". Fair comphensation for jury duty is a certificate of participation and you can opt out with a few words. Jury duty is not really an obligation and comphensation is fair enough. Conscription is an obligation that cannot be avoided (without penalty) with a few words. Conscription also cannot be comphensated for, in the free market, because we cannot put a value on a life.

    I cannot make it any more clear. Continue to post about how I deftly ninja your wonderful arguments when I do no such thing, whatever.



    If you cannot pay someone for doing something you require, as an employer, then they are your slave or a volunteer. There's no way around that.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 11-06-10 at 03:30 AM.

  9. #219
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    Re: Mandatory military service?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    The point is not merely "work involuntarily". Grasp the main point, please: "work without fair comphensation". Fair comphensation for jury duty is a certificate of participation and you can opt out with a few words. Jury duty is not really an obligation and comphensation is fair enough.
    Have you tried to get out of jury duty in a US Court lately? In my state you get locked up for skipping out and a "few words" just don't seem to cut it

    On the topic of fair compensation......members of the US military get equitable pay, health/dental care, free housing or housing allowance, hazardous duty pay, paid leave, free legal service, family benefits, life insurance, skill training, etc. Sure, it's not like a top-notch corporate executive's package, but we're hardly left destitute.

    Finally, I really don't want to come across as insensitve here and I have served in a combat zone, so I feel that I can speak with a degree of openness here, but....statistically speaking, you have a greater chance of being injured or killed by simply getting in a car and driving on a public highway, than you do serving on Active Duty in the military. Take the avg number of drivers on our highways each day and look at the percentage injured or killed in auto related accidents, then take the number of active duty military and look at the percentage of these injured or killed in combat daily and you'll see. Don't get me wrong, I grieve deeply for the loss of every single one of our men/women in uniform, but your talking point is based on the fallacy that military service automatically equals the "ultimate sacrifice". Sure, there is that potential, it's the "nature of the business", but then, like I said, there are many things we do on a daily basis (ie. driving a car) that gives us the same or even greater potential for death or injury.
    Last edited by FluffyNinja; 11-06-10 at 03:46 AM.
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  10. #220
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    Re: Mandatory military service?

    Yes, I know people who have skipped out of jury duty with a couple words at the courthouse recently.

    Don't talk down to me about the reality of military service. I was a paratrooper during wartime. It was not like jury duty, and your comparison is disrespectful.



    If someone buys what they cannot pay for, they have slaves or volunteers. End of story.


    ps. No-one forces you to drive a car. Stay home if you want, or buy a jetpack. Stop trying to compare jury duty or driving a car to being required to charge a machinegun nest, it's unbecomming intellectually. You're trying to argue that it is ok to force military service by belittling that service. Yuck.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 11-06-10 at 04:02 AM.

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