View Poll Results: Would you support a flat tax system instead of our current progressive one?

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  • Yes

    38 54.29%
  • No

    23 32.86%
  • Maybe

    9 12.86%
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Thread: Flat tax or progressive tax? Which do you prefer?

  1. #71
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    Re: Flat tax or progressive tax? Which do you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    1. if they are utiilizing their wealth to increase the productivity and strength of society, then that is them being more productive. they are free, if they so wished, to withdraw all that money from the bank and merely stuff it into mattresses. the attempt to split labour income and capital income creates a false dichotomy; both represent an individual utilizing his resources.

    2. how the heck do you think they got that money in the first place?
    1. Your argument hinges on wealth instead of productivity.

    2. There are multiple reasons why a person can be rich. It is not always productivity nor is there evidence that it is productivity even half the time.

  2. #72
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    Re: Flat tax or progressive tax? Which do you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    You are going to have to provide evidence that the rich are more productive and its is not a result of the money they control.
    1. if they are utiilizing their wealth to increase the productivity and strength of society, then that is them being more productive. they are free, if they so wished, to withdraw all that money from the bank and merely stuff it into mattresses. the attempt to split labour income and capital income creates a false dichotomy; both represent an individual utilizing his resources.

    2. how do you think they got that money in the first place? using the new "above $250,000" metric that the Administration seems to have come up with; those people are generally small business owners.

    80% of America's Millionaires are First-Generation... most of them are self-made businessmen and women...

  3. #73
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    Re: Flat tax or progressive tax? Which do you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    1. if they are utiilizing their wealth to increase the productivity and strength of society, then that is them being more productive. they are free, if they so wished, to withdraw all that money from the bank and merely stuff it into mattresses. the attempt to split labour income and capital income creates a false dichotomy; both represent an individual utilizing his resources.
    It is evidence of their money being productive. Theres a huge difference here.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    2. how do you think they got that money in the first place? using the new "above $250,000" metric that the Administration seems to have come up with; those people are generally small business owners.

    80% of America's Millionaires are First-Generation... most of them are self-made businessmen and women...
    This still doesn't show that they have an increased contribution to society, only that they made more money.

    There is more to society than its economics.

  4. #74
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    Re: Flat tax or progressive tax? Which do you prefer?

    sorry, tried to edit and accidentally reposted.

    to answer your #1: no, it doesn't. if you are generating capital gains, then by definition you are being productive.

    and i think my modified post answers your #2.

  5. #75
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    Re: Flat tax or progressive tax? Which do you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    It is evidence of their money being productive. Theres a huge difference here.
    no, there's not. with them, increased productivity happens. without them, it doesn't.

    This still doesn't show that they have an increased contribution to society, only that they made more money.
    do i really have to do this?

    Mega, how does one make money. ? specifically, how does one generate profit?

  6. #76
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    Re: Flat tax or progressive tax? Which do you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Because there was NO INFLATION then, I lived it, worked it and paid taxes during that period of time.
    Except there was, and it was quite high in 1981 and 1982. But hey, I'm sure your memory is a more reliable source than statistics.
    Historical Inflation data from 1914 to the present

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative
    Why 2005 dollars?
    OMG. I already told you that you can pick ANY year, as long as it's in CONSTANT dollars rather than CURRENT dollars. OK, I'm seriously done. It's obvious you haven't the faintest understanding of economics, and wear your ignorance as a badge of honor. So there really isn't any point in my trying to educate you.
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    Re: Flat tax or progressive tax? Which do you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    no, there's not. with them, increased productivity happens. without them, it doesn't.



    do i really have to do this?

    Mega, how does one make money. ? specifically, how does one generate profit?
    they also tend to be net tax payers

    ie more productive than net tax consumers

    but no lib is ever able to answer what extra benefits do the rich actually get from the government that those who are net tax consumers don't get



  8. #78
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    Re: Flat tax or progressive tax? Which do you prefer?

    since i think it would be instructive to the topic at hand, i think i'll post more of the article cited above:

    In studying the affluent, I found a pattern that the wealthy follow. It is more often the result of planning, hard work, perseverance, and self-discipline that determines who become wealthy. The factors compiled here are summarized from the research done by Thomas Stanley Ph.D. on over 1100 actual millionaires (many are multi-millionaires) in the U.S. today.

    1) Live Well Below Your Means

    Don’t be fooled. The ‘average’ millionaire doesn’t look like a millionaire! The key word here is frugal, frugal, and frugal. The typical person is America is a consumptionist. It’s in our blood. We work hard, make money, and spend it well. Not the typical millionaire! They play great defense (saving and investing) as well as offense (making money). Just like in football – great offense is exciting…but great defense wins games. An interesting note: Millionaires on average claimed their spouses were as frugal or more than they were. It’s a family affair: Sacrifice high consumption today, for financial freedom tomorrow.

    2) Spend Your Time, Energy, and Money in Ways that Build Wealth.

    Although the road to Millionaire’s Ville takes a frugal path, they pay well for training and advice. Do investment planning. Go to seminars. Hire good attorneys, tax accountants, mentors and coaches. Learn to identify and invest in assets that produce income. The wealthy spend money when the investment will protect and grow their assets. Millionaires also know the details: How much is spent each month and on food, clothing, and shelter. The non-wealthy say they don’t have time to plan, while the wealthy make time to plan. But here’s the shocker: The average millionaire spends 8.5 hours per month planning, while the non-affluent spend 4.5 hours or less planning. How can 4 more hours per week impact your future? Make it happen and the odds are in your favor of joining the truly wealthy!

    3) Choose Financial Independence over Displaying High Social Status

    The wealthy run highly efficient operations both in business and at home. Most live in average neighborhoods, and drive average cars. They’re not interested in keeping up with the Jones’ – because the Jones’ aren’t financially free. It takes lots of energy to consume big mortgages, change homes every few years, buy the most recent model cars, and wear the latest fashions. The wealthy drive typically American made cars! Japanese cars come in 2nd place; half of these are Toyota Camrys. Yes, significant value per dollar is the key here. The Millionaire’s Motto: You aren’t what you drive. The status cars – Lexus, BMW’s, Mercedes? At 6.4% or less per each brand.

    4) Don’t Accept Economic Support from Your Parents once Outside the Home

    Sounds painful doesn’t it? It’s a fact that has taught the wealthy how to earn, keep, and invest money. Parents of the wealthy do not, or cannot, provide “economic outpatient care”. The results are clear: The more dollars the adult children receive, the fewer they accumulate. Those who are given less are motivated to accumulate more on their own merits. An amazing fact: 80% of millionaires are first generation millionaires; they have made their money on their own, in their lifetime. Many of these folks have been immigrants to the U.S., starting out with minimal cash on hand. Work hard to learn and generate wealth—it CAN be done, and happens in America every day.

    5) Teach your children to be economically self-sufficient to foster a “Wealth Mind-Set”

    Provide your children fish and they will eat for a day. Teach them to fish and they will eat for a lifetime. As you might guess, children who grew up to be affluent, who had affluent parents, were taught to be disciplined and intentional with their money. Robert Kyosaki, author of Rich Dad Poor Dad, didn’t cave in when his son asked for a car at 16 years old, even when the neighbor kids were being given cars by their parents. He gave his son $3000, and a subscription to the Wall Street Journal, and a few books on investing in the stock market. Now Rich Dad’s son watches more CNN than MTV. He has the motivation, and is getting an education that will provide him for a lifetime, well beyond his first car purchase.

    6) Become Proficient in Targeting Market Opportunities

    Find your niche, like the wealthy do. Follow where the money flows, and look for specialized opportunities. Why not target the wealthy themselves? Yes, they are frugal, especially first generation self-made wealthy. BUT…they spend openly on investing in themselves and their families. Investment advice and services, business training, software, tax advice, legal, medical, dental, health, real estate, and education are top priorities. They pay well for products and services that protect and grow their assets. Remember the majority of the wealthy are self-employed entrepreneurs. Followed by medical professionals and business executives.

    7) Choose the Right Occupation

    You now have a good idea of what the affluent do. 20% are retirees. Of the remaining 80%, most of these are self-made businessmen and women. Keep in mind that entrepreneurs are 4 times more likely to become millionaires than those who work for others. There is no one business, or group of business more likely to breed millionaire-hood. Some are lecturers, others medical professionals, farmers, small manufacturers, and corner mom and pop stores. The most important predictor is the characteristics of the owner, than the type of business. It’s the winning combination of skills and attitude that hit’s the wealth target.

    NOTE: The affluent attribute being honest with all people as the most important characteristic in their businesses, tied with being well disciplined. The vast majority of the wealthy were not stellar students, or born into money. They have made it through following a few simple principles and being consistent.

  9. #79
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    Re: Flat tax or progressive tax? Which do you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    they also tend to be net tax payers

    ie more productive than net tax consumers

    but no lib is ever able to answer what extra benefits do the rich actually get from the government that those who are net tax consumers don't get
    no, they can only argue that the rich do more with those benefits. as though somehow the army protected them Extra Special.

  10. #80
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    Re: Flat tax or progressive tax? Which do you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    no, they can only argue that the rich do more with those benefits. as though somehow the army protected them Extra Special.
    its a myth the class warfare operatives use to justify confiscatory tax rates. its like claiming the A student at state U was GIVEN those grades over the flunk out or the barely passing student

    in reality all were "given" the same thing and should pay the same tuition



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