View Poll Results: Would you support a flat tax system instead of our current progressive one?

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  • Yes

    38 54.29%
  • No

    23 32.86%
  • Maybe

    9 12.86%
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Thread: Flat tax or progressive tax? Which do you prefer?

  1. #41
    Sage
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    Re: Flat tax or progressive tax? Which do you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    You sure you want to go down that path? OK, fair enough. Reagan's tax cuts went into effect in 1982, and Bush's tax cuts went into effect in 2001-03. Let's see how that affected revenue:

    Historical Federal Receipt and Outlay Summary

    Revenue in constant FY2005 dollars (millions):
    1980 $1197.6
    1981 $1251.4
    1982 $1202.8
    1983 $1113.6

    2000 $2310.0
    2001 $2215.3
    2002 $2028.6
    2003 $1901.1

    What amazes me is that there are people who still argue that we can get a free lunch by cutting taxes, when all the empirical evidence suggests otherwise. Does cutting tax stimulate the economy? Yes, to a degree. Does it stimulate the economy enough to make up for all the lost revenue? Not even close. If you think that lower taxes are inherently good because they help the economy, that's one thing. But don't try to make the case that they have no costs at all in terms of government revenue. That kind of something-for-nothing attitude is juvenile. If that actually worked, why not just cut the tax rate to 0% so that we could maximize our tax revenue?
    Why would anyone apply 2005 dollars to what happened in the 80's. Here are the facts by year

    Line 1981 1982 1983 1984 1985 1986 1987 1988 1989
    1 Current receipts 917.7 939.3 1,000.3 1,113.5 1,214.6 1,290.1 1,403.2 1,502.4 1,627.2
    2 Current tax receipts 663.5 659.5 694.1 762.5 823.9 868.8 965.7 1,018.9 1,109.2
    3 Personal current taxes 345.2 354.1 352.3 377.4 417.3 437.2 489.1 504.9 566.1
    4 Taxes on production and imports 235.6 240.9 263.3 289.8 308.1 323.4 347.5 374.5 398.9
    5 Taxes on corporate income 81.1 63.1 77.2 94.0 96.5 106.5 127.1 137.2 141.5
    6 Taxes from the rest of the world 1.5 1.4 1.2 1.3 1.9 1.7 2.0 2.4 2.7
    7 Contributions for government social
    insurance 196.9 210.1 227.2 258.8 282.8 304.9 324.6 363.2 386.9
    8 Income receipts on assets 50.2 58.9 65.3 74.3 84.0 89.7 85.6 89.9 93.7
    9 Interest and miscellaneous receipts 1 50.1 58.7 65.1 74.1 83.8 89.5 85.5 89.7 93.5

    What continues to amaze me is how some people continue to believe that the American people keeping more of their money is an expense to the Federal govt. That is total bs and part of the brainwashing by the left.
    Last edited by Conservative; 10-22-10 at 02:30 PM.

  2. #42
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    Re: Flat tax or progressive tax? Which do you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No one argues they are not. My link clearly stated this:



    But it also says this:



    And the other one says this:



    So, you're addressing something not argued and not addressing what was argued. Try again.
    Again, you are hanging your entire argument on tax rates and not dollars collected. Fact is the Rich are paying a lower rate but higher dollars today under the Bush tax cuts and that is reality.

  3. #43
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    Re: Flat tax or progressive tax? Which do you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Again, you are hanging your entire argument on tax rates and not dollars collected. Fact is the Rich are paying a lower rate but higher dollars today under the Bush tax cuts and that is reality.
    If wealth and income were distributed more evenly as it should be, this wouldn't be a problem

  4. #44
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    Re: Flat tax or progressive tax? Which do you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    If wealth and income were distributed more evenly as it should be, this wouldn't be a problem
    Was this country built on wealth and income redistribution? Please name for me any country in the world that has been successful with that kind of economic policy?

  5. #45
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    Re: Flat tax or progressive tax? Which do you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Whovian View Post
    The poor, as well as the 'ok' as well as the 'slightly more ok' etc, are all part of that. I have no problem paying my fair share in taxes to 'contribute to the public expense', but I simply do not believe I should have to pay a higher percentage of my income in taxes, simply because I have achieved more in my life than someone else has. If I want to help those who have not acheived as much as I have, I'll choose to do so, or not.
    just as the student who makes all A's at a public university should not have to pay higher tuition or higher property taxes compared to the C-students or the D students or even the barely passing morons.



  6. #46
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    Re: Flat tax or progressive tax? Which do you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    If wealth and income were distributed more evenly as it should be, this wouldn't be a problem
    how many dead bodies do you want to achieve that

    all a government can do is to impoverish all. You cannot make the lazy and untalented into high earners

    pillowheaded utopianistic dreams to the contrary



  7. #47
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    Re: Flat tax or progressive tax? Which do you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Why would anyone apply 2005 dollars to what happened in the 80's.
    If you understood the way economic statistics are used, you would understand that constant 2005 dollars is just a benchmark. You can use any year you want, as long as it's in constant dollars; the trend would be exactly the same. Constant dollars just adjusts for inflation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative
    Here are the facts by year

    Line 1981 1982 1983 1984 1985 1986 1987 1988 1989
    1 Current receipts 917.7 939.3 1,000.3 1,113.5 1,214.6 1,290.1 1,403.2 1,502.4 1,627.2
    2 Current tax receipts 663.5 659.5 694.1 762.5 823.9 868.8 965.7 1,018.9 1,109.2
    3 Personal current taxes 345.2 354.1 352.3 377.4 417.3 437.2 489.1 504.9 566.1
    4 Taxes on production and imports 235.6 240.9 263.3 289.8 308.1 323.4 347.5 374.5 398.9
    5 Taxes on corporate income 81.1 63.1 77.2 94.0 96.5 106.5 127.1 137.2 141.5
    6 Taxes from the rest of the world 1.5 1.4 1.2 1.3 1.9 1.7 2.0 2.4 2.7
    7 Contributions for government social
    insurance 196.9 210.1 227.2 258.8 282.8 304.9 324.6 363.2 386.9
    8 Income receipts on assets 50.2 58.9 65.3 74.3 84.0 89.7 85.6 89.9 93.7
    9 Interest and miscellaneous receipts 1 50.1 58.7 65.1 74.1 83.8 89.5 85.5 89.7 93.5
    So you're using current (non-inflation adjusted) dollars, AND you're using tax receipts completely unrelated to the income tax to prove that income tax cuts generate revenue? Makes perfect sense.

    I'm through trying to educate you on how to use statistics. It's obvious that you don't want to see what the empirical evidence obviously shows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative
    What continues to amaze me is how some people continue to believe that the American people keeping more of their money is an expense to the Federal govt. That is total bs and part of the brainwashing by the left.
    If you think that you have some fundamental right to every dollar you own, that's at least a philosophical difference. (You're wrong, but at least I can understand where you're coming from.) But when you incorporate all of this dishonest crap into your argument claiming that tax cuts don't decrease revenue - when the evidence shows precisely the opposite - you undercut any credibility you have.
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  8. #48
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    Re: Flat tax or progressive tax? Which do you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    If you understood the way economic statistics are used, you would understand that constant 2005 dollars is just a benchmark. You can use any year you want, as long as it's in constant dollars; the trend would be exactly the same. Constant dollars just adjusts for inflation.



    So you're using current (non-inflation adjusted) dollars, AND you're using tax receipts completely unrelated to the income tax to prove that income tax cuts generate revenue? Makes perfect sense.

    I'm through trying to educate you on how to use statistics. It's obvious that you don't want to see what the empirical evidence obviously shows.



    If you think that you have some fundamental right to every dollar you own, that's at least a philosophical difference. (You're wrong, but at least I can understand where you're coming from.) But when you incorporate all of this dishonest crap into your argument claiming that tax cuts don't decrease revenue - when the evidence shows precisely the opposite - you undercut any credibility you have.
    why is he wrong-just because the government has more power to take his money

    I find the parasite mentality of the left to be disgusting myself.



  9. #49
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    Re: Flat tax or progressive tax? Which do you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    why is he wrong-just because the government has more power to take his money
    I just posted the statistics showing that tax revenue did indeed decrease following the Bush tax cuts (and to a lesser extent, following the Reagan tax cuts). Try to keep up.

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude
    I find the parasite mentality of the left to be disgusting myself.
    Cool. I find your Gordon Gekko mentality to be disgusting. (However, I'm not so partisan that I would attribute your despicable worldview to ALL conservatives.)
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  10. #50
    Sage
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    Re: Flat tax or progressive tax? Which do you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    If you understood the way economic statistics are used, you would understand that constant 2005 dollars is just a benchmark. You can use any year you want, as long as it's in constant dollars; the trend would be exactly the same. Constant dollars just adjusts for inflation.



    So you're using current (non-inflation adjusted) dollars, AND you're using tax receipts completely unrelated to the income tax to prove that income tax cuts generate revenue? Makes perfect sense.

    I'm through trying to educate you on how to use statistics. It's obvious that you don't want to see what the empirical evidence obviously shows.



    If you think that you have some fundamental right to every dollar you own, that's at least a philosophical difference. (You're wrong, but at least I can understand where you're coming from.) But when you incorporate all of this dishonest crap into your argument claiming that tax cuts don't decrease revenue - when the evidence shows precisely the opposite - you undercut any credibility you have.
    What I posted were actual dollars at the time and tax revenue to the U.S. Govt. almost doubled after the Reagan 10-10-5% tax cuts. How can that happen? I understand that the govt. has to be funded but today that means 3.8 trillion dollars and is outside the role of our govt. established by the Founders.

    There is nothing dishonest about my claim that the tax rate cuts led to more taxpayers and thus higher tax revenue to the govt. It isn't crap as it is substantiated by the U.S. Treasury and the IRS. Your evidence is typical liberal spin and is nothing more than an attempt to convince people that the govt. needs the revenue more than the American people and that tax cuts are an expense to the govt.

    I would worry more about your credibility than mine as mine is backed by actual data that matters, U.S. Treasury and the IRS.

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