View Poll Results: Would you support a flat tax system instead of our current progressive one?

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    38 54.29%
  • No

    23 32.86%
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Thread: Flat tax or progressive tax? Which do you prefer?

  1. #31
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    Re: Flat tax or progressive tax? Which do you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Whovian
    The poor, as well as the 'ok' as well as the 'slightly more ok' etc, are all part of that. I have no problem paying my fair share in taxes to 'contribute to the public expense', but I simply do not believe I should have to pay a higher percentage of my income in taxes, simply because I have achieved more in my life than someone else has. If I want to help those who have not acheived as much as I have, I'll choose to do so, or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    The reason you achieve more is because you use more of that provided provided by the govenment. For example if you invent a widget, why should I care whether somebody starts making the same thing and profiting from it, they will pobably sell it cheaper than you. Why should I have to pay taxes to protect YOU? That's just one example of why the rich should pay at a higher rate.

    In short, you are wealthy because you depend upon much of what the govenment provides you by helping you get weathy and protecting it.
    First off, let's be clear. When I use 'I have achieved', I am speaking hypothetically, not literally. So don't get all condescending and whiney about how I have more but don't deserve it.

    Second, you don't pay taxes to protect me... I pay taxes to protect me. As for the use of copyright laws in your argument, that is severely flawed. Why should someone else profit off my invention? They did not conceive it.. create it... spend money to develop it... I did. What gives them the right to profit from MY hard work, initiative and investment? I don't feel I should have the right to profit from something YOU invented, why should you have the right to profit on something I invented? As for the 'they will probably sell it cheaper than you' statement, that's merely an assumption you're making in a failed attempt to bolster your position.

    This argument that the ONLY reason someone achieves more is because the government made it possible is patently ridiculous.

  2. #32
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    Re: Flat tax or progressive tax? Which do you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Right, that is why 47% of the income earners in this country don't pay any Federal Income taxes
    That's because 47% of the income earners earn essentially nothing as a proportion of national income.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative
    and why high income earners are paying more in taxes under the Bush tax cuts.
    High income earners are paying more under the Bush tax cuts? How do you figure? The top rate was 39.6% in 2000, and it's now 35%.

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative
    Tax laws in this country were written by the Ways and Means Committee in this country and for the past 4 years it has been under the control of the Democrats. All those so called protection for the rich loop holes were created by the Ways and Means Committee in the House. You can thank Democrats for any protection for the Rich that exists.
    To which loopholes are you referring?
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  3. #33
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    Re: Flat tax or progressive tax? Which do you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    That's because 47% of the income earners earn essentially nothing as a proportion of national income.



    High income earners are paying more under the Bush tax cuts? How do you figure? The top rate was 39.6% in 2000, and it's now 35%.



    To which loopholes are you referring?

    Take your comments to the IRS as they posted the data. Ask Pbrauer who says that the rich are being protected by tax laws.

    Why is it that liberals believe that because tax rates go down that revenue goes down as well? U.S. Treasury Dept. says differently as it posts actual tax revenue dollars by month and by year. Check out the tax revenue after the Reagan and Bush tax cuts went into effect.

  4. #34
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    Re: Flat tax or progressive tax? Which do you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Right, that is why 47% of the income earners in this country don't pay any Federal Income taxes and why high income earners are paying more in taxes under the Bush tax cuts. Tax laws in this country were written by the Ways and Means Committee in this country and for the past 4 years it has been under the control of the Democrats. All those so called protection for the rich loop holes were created by the Ways and Means Committee in the House. You can thank Democrats for any protection for the Rich that exists.
    Just so you know:

    Upon closer inspection, the report proved much less incendiary than reported by the Associated Press and various right-wing blogs. As the New York Times' David Leonhardt noted: "The 47 percent number is not wrong. [...] But the modifiers here — federal and income — are important. Income taxes aren’t the only kind of federal taxes that people pay. There are also payroll taxes and investment taxes, among others. And, of course, people pay state and local taxes, too."

    Leonhardt went on to succinctly summarize the rationale behind wealthy Americans having a significantly higher tax rate.

    There is no question that the wealthy pay a higher overall tax rate than any other group. That is an American tradition. But there is also no question that their tax rates have fallen more than any other group’s over the last three decades. The only reason they are paying more taxes than in the past is that their pretax incomes have risen so rapidly — which hardly seems a great rationale for a further tax cut.

    47 Percent 'Don't Pay Taxes'? No Big Deal | The Atlantic Wire

    With Tax Day coming on Thursday, 47 percent has become shorthand for the notion that the wealthy face a much higher tax burden than they once did while growing numbers of Americans are effectively on the dole.

    Neither one of those ideas is true. They rely on a cleverly selective reading of the facts. So does the 47 percent number.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/14/bu...leonhardt.html

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  5. #35
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    Re: Flat tax or progressive tax? Which do you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Just so you know:

    Upon closer inspection, the report proved much less incendiary than reported by the Associated Press and various right-wing blogs. As the New York Times' David Leonhardt noted: "The 47 percent number is not wrong. [...] But the modifiers here — federal and income — are important. Income taxes aren’t the only kind of federal taxes that people pay. There are also payroll taxes and investment taxes, among others. And, of course, people pay state and local taxes, too."

    Leonhardt went on to succinctly summarize the rationale behind wealthy Americans having a significantly higher tax rate.

    There is no question that the wealthy pay a higher overall tax rate than any other group. That is an American tradition. But there is also no question that their tax rates have fallen more than any other group’s over the last three decades. The only reason they are paying more taxes than in the past is that their pretax incomes have risen so rapidly — which hardly seems a great rationale for a further tax cut.

    47 Percent 'Don't Pay Taxes'? No Big Deal | The Atlantic Wire

    With Tax Day coming on Thursday, 47 percent has become shorthand for the notion that the wealthy face a much higher tax burden than they once did while growing numbers of Americans are effectively on the dole.

    Neither one of those ideas is true. They rely on a cleverly selective reading of the facts. So does the 47 percent number.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/14/bu...leonhardt.html
    Now there you go again distorting the discussion and ignoring that the taxes that the poor pay are use taxes for things like Social Security which is where all the Payroll Taxes go. Nice diversion and total distortion of the true facts. It is income taxes that was supposed to fund the General Fund however the Congress has seen to it that all taxes including use taxes goes to the General Fund to be wasted.

    The fact is the rich now shoulder a higher percentage of the income tax burden today AFTER the Bush tax cuts than they had before and more lower income people are paying no income taxes today thanks to the Bush tax cuts. Note the links in this article instead of noticing the author.

    Ten Myths About the Bush Tax Cuts | The Heritage Foundation

    By the way why do you always state that since tax rates are cut that tax revenue is reduced? Prove it
    Last edited by Conservative; 10-22-10 at 02:08 PM.

  6. #36
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    Re: Flat tax or progressive tax? Which do you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Now there you go again distorting the discussion and ignoring that the taxes that the poor pay are use taxes for things like Social Security which is where all the Payroll Taxes go. Nice diversion and total distortion of the true facts. It is income taxes that was supposed to fund the General Fund however the Congress has seen to it that all taxes including use taxes goes to the General Fund to be wasted.

    The fact is the rich now shoulder a higher percentage of the income tax burden today AFTER the Bush tax cuts than they had before and more lower income people are paying no income taxes today thanks to the Bush tax cuts. Note the links in this article instead of noticing the author.

    Ten Myths About the Bush Tax Cuts | The Heritage Foundation

    By the way why do you always state that since tax rates are cut that tax revenue is reduced? Prove it
    Not a diversion, a fact. Not sure what you seek to prove with your myths list, as it too says taxes don;t help the economy by putting money in the hands of people, but I also suspect other things on that list are debatable at best.

    In any case, you did not dispute anything said in the articles I posted with this list. Sorry.

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  7. #37
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    Re: Flat tax or progressive tax? Which do you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Whovian View Post
    Why should someone else profit off my invention? They did not conceive it.. create it... spend money to develop it... I did. What gives them the right to profit from MY hard work, initiative and investment? I don't feel I should have the right to profit from something YOU invented, why should you have the right to profit on something I invented?
    Nobody should profit from someones invention, but I am not inventing anything so why must I pay taxes to prevent someone from stealing your invention? OTOH, Why not the let free market rein and let dog eat dog?


  8. #38
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    Re: Flat tax or progressive tax? Which do you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Not a diversion, a fact. Not sure what you seek to prove with your myths list, as it too says taxes don;t help the economy by putting money in the hands of people, but I also suspect other things on that list are debatable at best.

    In any case, you did not dispute anything said in the articles I posted with this list. Sorry.
    What that post shows are IRS numbers and the link to those numbers showing that the rich are paying a greater percentage of the taxes after the Bush tax cuts even with the rate cuts and more lower income people have been dropped from paying any Federal income taxes. I take IRS data a lot more seriously than the articles you post.

    By the way, read the entire myth number 8 instead of just the first sentence

    Myth #8: Tax cuts help the economy by "putting money in people's pockets."
    Fact: Pro-growth tax cuts support incentives for productive behavior.

    Government spending does not "pump new money into the economy" because government must first tax or borrow that money out of the economy. Claims that tax cuts benefit the economy by "putting money in people's pockets" represent the flip side of the pump-priming fallacy. Instead, the right tax cuts help the economy by reducing government's influence on economic decisions and allowing people to respond more to market mechanisms, thereby encouraging more productive behavior.

    That means rate cuts, not rebates
    Last edited by Conservative; 10-22-10 at 02:19 PM. Reason: content

  9. #39
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    Re: Flat tax or progressive tax? Which do you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Take your comments to the IRS as they posted the data. Ask Pbrauer who says that the rich are being protected by tax laws.

    Why is it that liberals believe that because tax rates go down that revenue goes down as well? U.S. Treasury Dept. says differently as it posts actual tax revenue dollars by month and by year. Check out the tax revenue after the Reagan and Bush tax cuts went into effect.
    You sure you want to go down that path? OK, fair enough. Reagan's tax cuts went into effect in 1982, and Bush's tax cuts went into effect in 2001-03. Let's see how that affected revenue:

    http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfa....cfm?Docid=200

    Revenue in constant FY2005 dollars (millions):
    1980 $1197.6
    1981 $1251.4
    1982 $1202.8
    1983 $1113.6

    2000 $2310.0
    2001 $2215.3
    2002 $2028.6
    2003 $1901.1

    What amazes me is that there are people who still argue that we can get a free lunch by cutting taxes, when all the empirical evidence suggests otherwise. Does cutting tax stimulate the economy? Yes, to a degree. Does it stimulate the economy enough to make up for all the lost revenue? Not even close. If you think that lower taxes are inherently good because they help the economy, that's one thing. But don't try to make the case that they have no costs at all in terms of government revenue. That kind of something-for-nothing attitude is juvenile. If that actually worked, why not just cut the tax rate to 0% so that we could maximize our tax revenue?
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  10. #40
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    Re: Flat tax or progressive tax? Which do you prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    What that post shows are IRS numbers and the link to those numbers showing that the rich are paying a greater percentage of the taxes after the Bush tax cuts even with the rate cuts and more lower income people have been dropped from paying any Federal income taxes. I take IRS data a lot more seriously than the articles you post.
    No one argues they are not. My link clearly stated this:

    There is no question that the wealthy pay a higher overall tax rate than any other group
    But it also says this:

    But there is also no question that their tax rates have fallen more than any other group’s over the last three decades.
    And the other one says this:

    . . . . 47 percent has become shorthand for the notion that the wealthy face a much higher tax burden than they once did while growing numbers of Americans are effectively on the dole.

    Neither one of those ideas is true. They rely on a cleverly selective reading of the facts. So does the 47 percent number.
    So, you're addressing something not argued and not addressing what was argued. Try again.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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