View Poll Results: Do you advocate religious government?

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Thread: Do you favor Religious Government?

  1. #61
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    Re: Do you favor Religious Government?

    Quote Originally Posted by getagrip View Post
    As I stated earlier, it was impossible to change overnight what had developed for more than two centuries. The three fifths compromise was merely the agreement made for the enumeration of slaves currently living in the country for the purpose of taxes and congressional representation. The Constitution was still 2 years away from ratification.

    I think my posts clearly represents my position on slavery, or any variety of it, including the modern human trafficking kind if you're to go that far. I'm not proposing that some kind of utopia can be found based merely on re-establishing the merits of our founders. We've passed another two centuries since then and times have changed considerably. I believe this topic is whether we favor religious government. According to Alexis de Toqueville's Democracy in America, the success America had achieved since it broke away from the British was an adherance to a high standard of morals -- based on Christian doctrines. Something we no longer can attest to and no questions as to why.
    Or you're just wrong in your apparent notion that all the Founding Fathers were unified in all their beliefs and, in actuality, they each had differeing opinions on the course the nation should go on, slavery being one of them.

    While you're right in that John Quincy Adams was against slavery, you are, however, wrong in that he was a Founding Father. And while Thomas Jefferson wrote the Delcaration of Independence and was against slavery, he was not a part of the Constitutional Convention to draft it.

    However, John Rutledge was a slave-owner, and supported it. He later became Chief Justice after John Jay.

    Pierce Butler and Charles Pinkney slipped in the Fugitive Slave Clause into the Constitution that demanded that fugitive slaves escaping to free states be extradited back to the slave owner.

    Daniel of St. Thomas Jennifer owned a plantation in Annapolis and instructed that all his slaves be freed 6 years after his death. So he was against slavery too, but only after he could no longer profit from their labor.

    While George Mason did find slavery morally objectionable, he only had the strength of his convictions to want to stop the importation of slaves, but not necessarily use the Constitution to force the states to ban slavery. However, it should be noted he was in favor of the disestablishment of the church.

    So this proves that the Founding Fathers were not always united in their opinions and beliefs, and some of them actually favored slavery in our nation. So, more likely than not, they were divided in regards to other beliefs as well.

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    Re: Do you favor Religious Government?

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    Or you're just wrong in your apparent notion that all the Founding Fathers were unified in all their beliefs and, in actuality, they each had differeing opinions on the course the nation should go on, slavery being one of them.

    While you're right in that John Quincy Adams was against slavery, you are, however, wrong in that he was a Founding Father. And while Thomas Jefferson wrote the Delcaration of Independence and was against slavery, he was not a part of the Constitutional Convention to draft it.

    However, John Rutledge was a slave-owner, and supported it. He later became Chief Justice after John Jay.

    Pierce Butler and Charles Pinkney slipped in the Fugitive Slave Clause into the Constitution that demanded that fugitive slaves escaping to free states be extradited back to the slave owner.

    Daniel of St. Thomas Jennifer owned a plantation in Annapolis and instructed that all his slaves be freed 6 years after his death. So he was against slavery too, but only after he could no longer profit from their labor.

    While George Mason did find slavery morally objectionable, he only had the strength of his convictions to want to stop the importation of slaves, but not necessarily use the Constitution to force the states to ban slavery. However, it should be noted he was in favor of the disestablishment of the church.

    So this proves that the Founding Fathers were not always united in their opinions and beliefs, and some of them actually favored slavery in our nation. So, more likely than not, they were divided in regards to other beliefs as well.
    I'm new here, so for me to start taking you seriously, I'll need to read more of your posts to determine if you always go off topic, insert into your responses non-existent claims of other members you engage or just have this steadfast fixation on the dead issue of slavery.

  3. #63
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    Re: Do you favor Religious Government?

    Quote Originally Posted by getagrip View Post
    I'm new here, so for me to start taking you seriously, I'll need to read more of your posts to determine if you always go off topic, insert into your responses non-existent claims of other members you engage or just have this steadfast fixation on the dead issue of slavery.
    Well here's your original post in this thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by getagrip View Post
    Over the years, I've read hundreds of quotes from our most prominent Founders expressing the importance of maintaining a moral society based upon the doctrines found in the Biblical Scriptures. Denying our Christian heritage would be to deny history itself. The "Separation of Church and State" phrase is found nowhere in our founding documents and didn't become an issue until the mid-20th century in 1947, Everson v. Board of Education. Is it mere coincidence that this period is also when evolution started creeping into the classroom?

    Evolution is a religion of itself and ironically never even addresses true origins. One of the most prolific atheist activists is Oxford Professor Richard Dawkins. He stated: "Evolution is the intellectual platform of atheism.," so we should not be alarmed to learn what the true intentions behind preaching evolution is.

    Maybe an alternative to the OP question should be; do we want a nation envisioned by our founders, or do we wish to continue to down the same path we're going?
    In your post, you were alluding that because the Founding Fathers knew "the importance of maintaining a moral society based upon the doctrines found in the Biblical Scriptures," I was just wondering what part of them wanting to maintain a moral society based upon the doctrines found in the Bible Scriptures allowed them to institute safeguards for slavery when they wrote the Constitution that would be the framework for the government of the moral society based upon the doctrines found in the Biblical Scriptures that you said the Founding Fathers wanted.

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    Re: Do you favor Religious Government?

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    Well here's your original post in this thread:



    In your post, you were alluding that because the Founding Fathers knew "the importance of maintaining a moral society based upon the doctrines found in the Biblical Scriptures," I was just wondering what part of them wanting to maintain a moral society based upon the doctrines found in the Bible Scriptures allowed them to institute safeguards for slavery when they wrote the Constitution that would be the framework for the government of the moral society based upon the doctrines found in the Biblical Scriptures that you said the Founding Fathers wanted.
    Pay special attention to that "envisioned" term please. If you're trying to make the case that slavery was envisioned by the most prominent of our founders, you're sadly mistaken. Besides, the issue of slavery was not included in the enumeration of powers expressed in Article I Section VIII, and rightly so. Being the Constitution is a Federal document and not a National document, the argument shifts to the States.

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    Re: Do you favor Religious Government?

    Quote Originally Posted by getagrip View Post
    Pay special attention to that "envisioned" term please. If you're trying to make the case that slavery was envisioned by the most prominent of our founders, you're sadly mistaken. Besides, the issue of slavery was not included in the enumeration of powers expressed in Article I Section VIII, and rightly so. Being the Constitution is a Federal document and not a National document, the argument shifts to the States.
    So now you're picking and choosing which of the Founding Fathers are important enough for the people 200 years later to maintain their vision of what the United States should be? Does that also mean that you will pick and choose which Founding Fathers you regard as important for maintaining a moral society based on the Biblical Scriptures and ignore those who didn't believe in maintaining a moral society based on the Biblical Scriptures?

    And the argument does not totally shift to the states, as I pointed out earlier the Article IV, Section II, Clause III that constitutionally forces free states to apprehend and return runaway slaves to their owners.
    Last edited by samsmart; 10-25-10 at 01:00 AM.

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    Re: Do you favor Religious Government?

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    So now you're picking and choosing which of the Founding Fathers are important enough for the people 200 years later to maintain their vision of what the United States should be? Does that also mean that you will pick and choose which Founding Fathers you regard as important for maintaining a moral society based on the Biblical Scriptures and ignore those who didn't believe in maintaining a moral society based on the Biblical Scriptures?

    And the argument does not totally shift to the states, as I pointed out earlier the Article IV, Section II, Clause III that constitutionally forces free states to apprehend and return runaway slaves to their owners.
    Not at all. Again, the slavery issue was in no way going to be sufficiently addressed, nor would it have been possible back in that day to outright abolish it. Slavery had become an institution which had been introduced and enforced for centuries. Our Constitution would have never been ratified and we would more likely have morphed into the same failures experienced by the European nations.

    It took 13 years from the days of the Declaration just to get to the Ratification process of the Constitution, but you can go back to your "three fifths compromise" to understand the obstacles they faced.

    So clue me in here. Are you an atheist or an agnostic?

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    Re: Do you favor Religious Government?

    Quote Originally Posted by getagrip View Post
    Not at all. Again, the slavery issue was in no way going to be sufficiently addressed, nor would it have been possible back in that day to outright abolish it. Slavery had become an institution which had been introduced and enforced for centuries. Our Constitution would have never been ratified and we would more likely have morphed into the same failures experienced by the European nations.

    It took 13 years from the days of the Declaration just to get to the Ratification process of the Constitution, but you can go back to your "three fifths compromise" to understand the obstacles they faced.
    Well, I pointed out 4 of our Founding Fathers who didn't even see slavery as an obstacle to be overcome. So how do you resolve them in your notion that the Founding Fathers as a whole wanted to create a moral society based on the Biblical Scriptures?

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    Re: Do you favor Religious Government?

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    Well, I pointed out 4 of our Founding Fathers who didn't even see slavery as an obstacle to be overcome. So how do you resolve them in your notion that the Founding Fathers as a whole wanted to create a moral society based on the Biblical Scriptures?
    Four Founding Fathers? Are you trying to imply that the majority opinion of that era was in support of slavery? Where have I stated anywhere "the Founding Fathers as a whole?" Again, you're making assertions from my posts and twisting the direction of this discussion with the sole emphasis on slavery.

    Was Charles Carroll, a signer of the DOI a leading founder? If his opinion is considered worthy, he spoke for the majority of the sentiments in those days:
    Why keep alive the question of slavery? It is admitted by all to be a great evil. (emphasis mine)
    -- Life and Correspondence of Charles Carroll of Carrollton, Vol. II, p. 321, April 23, 1820
    The overwhelming majority of early Americans and most of America's leaders did not own slaves. Some did own slaves, which were often inherited (like George Washington at age eleven), but many of these people set them free after independence. Most Founders believed that slavery was wrong and that it should be abolished as the Bible strictly forbids involuntary servitude; "He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death." Exodus 21:16, though voluntary servitude was permitted under the Mosaic law.

    Maybe a little perspective should be noted here. According to Hugh Thomas in The Slave Trade, December 7, 1997 about 11,328,000 Africans were transported to the new world between 1440 and 1870. Of these about 4 million went to Brazil, 2.5 million to Spanish colonies, 2 million to the British West Indies, 1.6 million to the French West Indies, and only 500,000 went to what became the United States of America. In 1700 there were not more than 20 to 30 thousand black slaves in all the colonies. The undeniable fault here lies squarely at the foot of the British. In the quest to expand their empire, the colonies more or less had become merely the financial tool to pay off war debt, and slaves helped to secure that revenue.

    The historical fact is that slavery was not the product of, nor was it an evil introduced by the founders. Slavery has existed since the fall of mankind in nearly every civilization. At the time of our founders, it's inherent evil didn't even dawn upon them until the colonists woke up in the mid-1760's when they realized they were becoming slaves to the British Empire themselves.

    Prior to the great Revolution, the great majority . . . of our people had been so long accustomed to the practice and convenience of having slaves that very few among them even doubted the propriety and rectitude of it.
    -- John Jay, The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Vol. III, p. 342, to the English Anti-Slavery Society in June 1788.
    For me to continue this discussion, you will have assert your ideals in relation to the topic instead of continuing to challenge mine. And if the main focus of yours is to put the blame of slavery on our founder's envision for America, I consider the matter closed.

    So are you an atheist or an agnostic?

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    Re: Do you favor Religious Government?

    Quote Originally Posted by getagrip View Post
    So are you an atheist or an agnostic?
    Why do you need to know so badly?

  10. #70
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    Re: Do you favor Religious Government?

    Quote Originally Posted by getagrip View Post
    Four Founding Fathers? Are you trying to imply that the majority opinion of that era was in support of slavery? Where have I stated anywhere "the Founding Fathers as a whole?" Again, you're making assertions from my posts and twisting the direction of this discussion with the sole emphasis on slavery.

    Was Charles Carroll, a signer of the DOI a leading founder? If his opinion is considered worthy, he spoke for the majority of the sentiments in those days:


    The overwhelming majority of early Americans and most of America's leaders did not own slaves. Some did own slaves, which were often inherited (like George Washington at age eleven), but many of these people set them free after independence. Most Founders believed that slavery was wrong and that it should be abolished as the Bible strictly forbids involuntary servitude; "He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death." Exodus 21:16, though voluntary servitude was permitted under the Mosaic law.

    Maybe a little perspective should be noted here. According to Hugh Thomas in The Slave Trade, December 7, 1997 about 11,328,000 Africans were transported to the new world between 1440 and 1870. Of these about 4 million went to Brazil, 2.5 million to Spanish colonies, 2 million to the British West Indies, 1.6 million to the French West Indies, and only 500,000 went to what became the United States of America. In 1700 there were not more than 20 to 30 thousand black slaves in all the colonies. The undeniable fault here lies squarely at the foot of the British. In the quest to expand their empire, the colonies more or less had become merely the financial tool to pay off war debt, and slaves helped to secure that revenue.

    The historical fact is that slavery was not the product of, nor was it an evil introduced by the founders. Slavery has existed since the fall of mankind in nearly every civilization. At the time of our founders, it's inherent evil didn't even dawn upon them until the colonists woke up in the mid-1760's when they realized they were becoming slaves to the British Empire themselves.



    For me to continue this discussion, you will have assert your ideals in relation to the topic instead of continuing to challenge mine. And if the main focus of yours is to put the blame of slavery on our founder's envision for America, I consider the matter closed.
    I have asserted my ideals elsewhere in this thread.

    I am debating your assertion for the reason why the U.S. should have a religious government, which seems to be, "The Founding Fathers believed in religion in government, therefore we should continue with their vision."

    To me, just because the Founding Fathers did something does not make it in and of itself worthy to continue. Such as slavery. While the Founding Fathers may not have started slavery, which I never said they did, they never stopped it or halted it. I have already cited 4 Founding Fathers who wished it to continue. This is to further support my assertion against implementing a religious government simply because the Founding Father did.

    Quote Originally Posted by getagrip View Post
    So are you an atheist or an agnostic?
    I am an atheistic agnostic deist Christian Jewish gnostic Luciferean Buddhist shaman Zensunni.

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