View Poll Results: Do you advocate religious government?

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    5 6.41%
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    73 93.59%
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Thread: Do you favor Religious Government?

  1. #51
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    Re: Do you favor Religious Government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    The debate of Seperation of Church and State has reared its ugly head once again.

    My view here is, if you are against Seperation of Church and State, then you must be for Religious government

    I.E. Basing laws and policy using Religious texts.

    While some things are more obvious and common sense, such as making murder illegal, other things such as making other religions illegal, teaching only creationism in schools etc... would be against the seperation of church and state.

    Is this something you advocate?
    So....are we basing this discussion on any real event, a news story, or are we just supposed to vomit our preexisting biases all over the keyboard?

  2. #52
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    Re: Do you favor Religious Government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    The debate of Seperation of Church and State has reared its ugly head once again.

    My view here is, if you are against Seperation of Church and State, then you must be for Religious government

    I.E. Basing laws and policy using Religious texts.

    While some things are more obvious and common sense, such as making murder illegal, other things such as making other religions illegal, teaching only creationism in schools etc... would be against the seperation of church and state.

    Is this something you advocate?
    I want total separation of church and state.

    I think government should completely stay out of the affairs of religious organizations.

    I think religions should completely stay out of government policies.

    I think that while people enjoy freedom of religion, they also have freedom from religion, as I believe people also have a right to personal conscience. Therefore, people should be allowed to make their own decisions themselves, and people have no right to set policies against them based on religious reasons.
    Last edited by samsmart; 10-24-10 at 08:25 PM.

  3. #53
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    Re: Do you favor Religious Government?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    I don't think that's accurate, precisely.

    Rather, in a religious governing system (read: theocracy), the law itself would probably be by design biased against one religion over another or other such things in the first place, so "equal under the law" wouldn't even be in the realm of possibility.

    Itís not that such a government doesn't believe in equal under the law Ė Iím sure everyone who falls under a given law is treated equally under said law Ė itís that they believe there should be laws based upon or effecting religion at all.

    THAT is the issue.
    The problem is that its just that, religious government would consider those who arent the majority religion or lack their of second class citizens or worse. A religious apartheid would exist.
    Jackboots always come in matched pairs, a left boot and a right boot.

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    Re: Do you favor Religious Government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    The debate of Seperation of Church and State has reared its ugly head once again.

    My view here is, if you are against Seperation of Church and State, then you must be for Religious government

    I.E. Basing laws and policy using Religious texts.

    While some things are more obvious and common sense, such as making murder illegal, other things such as making other religions illegal, teaching only creationism in schools etc... would be against the seperation of church and state.

    Is this something you advocate?
    Over the years, I've read hundreds of quotes from our most prominent Founders expressing the importance of maintaining a moral society based upon the doctrines found in the Biblical Scriptures. Denying our Christian heritage would be to deny history itself. The "Separation of Church and State" phrase is found nowhere in our founding documents and didn't become an issue until the mid-20th century in 1947, Everson v. Board of Education. Is it mere coincidence that this period is also when evolution started creeping into the classroom?

    Evolution is a religion of itself and ironically never even addresses true origins. One of the most prolific atheist activists is Oxford Professor Richard Dawkins. He stated: "Evolution is the intellectual platform of atheism.," so we should not be alarmed to learn what the true intentions behind preaching evolution is.

    Maybe an alternative to the OP question should be; do we want a nation envisioned by our founders, or do we wish to continue to down the same path we're going?

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    Re: Do you favor Religious Government?

    Quote Originally Posted by getagrip View Post
    Maybe an alternative to the OP question should be; do we want a nation envisioned by our founders, or do we wish to continue to down the same path we're going?
    So we should promote religion in government, suffrage only for white propertied males, racial slavery in the South, the diaspora and genocide of Native Americans, and revachism against Great Britain and France because that was the nation envisioned by our Founders?

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    Re: Do you favor Religious Government?

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    So we should promote religion in government, suffrage only for white propertied males, racial slavery in the South, the diaspora and genocide of Native Americans, and revachism against Great Britain and France because that was the nation envisioned by our Founders?
    So in one broad brush, you've re-written history in a single sentence. Slavery was introduced to the America's two centuries before our founding and was enforced by the British Empire. The truth is, our founders were not in favor of it.

    I abhor slavery. I was born in a country where slavery had been established by British Kings and Parliaments as well as by the laws of the country ages before my existence. . . . In former days there was no combating the prejudices of men supported by interest; the day, I hope, is approaching when, from principles of gratitude as well as justice, every man will strive to be foremost in showing his readiness to comply with the Golden Rule. --Henry Larens, President of the Congress, 1777
    A disposition to abolish slavery prevails in North America, that many of Pennsylvanians have set their slaves at liberty, and that even the Virginia Assembly have petitioned the King for permission to make a law for preventing the importation of more into that colony. This request, however, will probably not be granted as their former laws of that kind have always been repealed. --Benjamin Franklin, Letter to Dean Woodward, 1773
    John Quincy Adams was known as the "hell-hound of abolition" and even Thomas Jefferson, often condemned of being a slave owner wrote this:
    He [King George III] has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating its most sacred rights of life and liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivating and carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither. . . . Determined to keep open a market where men should be bought and sold, he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or to restrain this execrable commerce. --The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Vol. I, p. 34
    This is usually the first area in which people attack our founders, but it's historically incorrect. You also cannot turn about corruption of more than 200 years in a matter of a few. Maybe you are also unaware of Indentured Servantry, where thousands of white slaves spent decades in the same conditions as their black counterparts?

  7. #57
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    Re: Do you favor Religious Government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Why should religious beliefs be any different than say philisophical beliefs? The 1st amendment does as much to garauntee people the free expression of their religion, and voting is free expression, as it does keeping the government from making laws that establish a religion.

    If you would vote in favor of something because the words of Locke and Hobbes have affected how you view the world why would that be different than voting in favor of something because the words of Matthew, Luke, and John affects how you view the world?

    Almost every law is about forcing people in some form to do what the person thinks is best for the country based on their own opinions and views of a situation. You talk about people doing what they think is best for the country, not what they think is needed religiously. You talk like those are mutually exclussive. Do you think that somehow people that oppose abortion think its "good for the country" any less than those that seek to ban non-"green" things do it for that reason? Do you think that somehow people who push for allowing a moment of silence at the start of school think its "good for the country" any less than those that seek to ban transfats? Just because YOU don't think its good for the country does not disqualify the notion that they don't. And just because some of the country won't like it obviously doesn't disqualify it because there's no law that gets passed that is liked by everyone in the country.

    YOU think that abortions just going to lead to the death of a lot of women and is bad for the country. Others think that it already leads to the death of many people and disallowing it would be good for the country. Why is their view on it magically, as if there is some universal truth to it, "bad" and yours is "good" otehr than because it fits your own biases and opinion to the issue.

    You act as if there is some universal "Right for the Country" that is crystal clear and unquestionably true to all.

    I would have no problem with someone believing alcohol is a dangerous and troublesome drug that leads to numerous deaths and thus due to that view votes to ban alcohol. So then why should I have an issue if someone felt that alcohol was sinful and poluted ones body and spirit causing people to act dangerously and troublesome and thus it should be banned? These individuals have constitutional protection to practice and express their religion, and part of that expression is the understanding that ones peronal philosophies...be it gained from a religion, from a philosopher, even just from living life"...influence how you view the world.

    To tell people they can't make political decisions based in part on their religious beliefs is unconstitutional imho, and more than that is ridiculously bigoted when you allow any other prsonal philosophies to be applied as "reasoning".
    Not just in your opinion, but in the opinion of the Founders as well.
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  8. #58
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    Re: Do you favor Religious Government?

    Quote Originally Posted by getagrip View Post
    So in one broad brush, you've re-written history in a single sentence. Slavery was introduced to the America's two centuries before our founding and was enforced by the British Empire. The truth is, our founders were not in favor of it.





    John Quincy Adams was known as the "hell-hound of abolition" and even Thomas Jefferson, often condemned of being a slave owner wrote this:

    This is usually the first area in which people attack our founders, but it's historically incorrect. You also cannot turn about corruption of more than 200 years in a matter of a few. Maybe you are also unaware of Indentured Servantry, where thousands of white slaves spent decades in the same conditions as their black counterparts?
    If the Founders were so against slavery, then why did they countenance it in the Constitution with the 3/5 Compromise?

    As for your other point, are you also in favor for indentured servitude as well?

    And what about limited suffrage, aboriginal genocide, and European revanchism?

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    Re: Do you favor Religious Government?

    Lets do somethin different we can always change it back. Bring on the conformity of the imperfectability of man lead by a government given divine leadership that is guided by a sense of ephemeral wisdom endowed from or creator to TEACH us the proper constructs of citizenship and loyalty to the state . Why not role it all into one , its been done before and so it shall be again- I know lets use the enviornment and our concern for the earth and let government be the moral compass for us by enacting laws to make us a" more noble animal in stewardship of nature for all". How blindly we see when lest we know, what we shall not reason for lack of understanding. The religious state has thus began.

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    Re: Do you favor Religious Government?

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    If the Founders were so against slavery, then why did they countenance it in the Constitution with the 3/5 Compromise?

    As for your other point, are you also in favor for indentured servitude as well?

    And what about limited suffrage, aboriginal genocide, and European revanchism?
    As I stated earlier, it was impossible to change overnight what had developed for more than two centuries. The three fifths compromise was merely the agreement made for the enumeration of slaves currently living in the country for the purpose of taxes and congressional representation. The Constitution was still 2 years away from ratification.

    I think my posts clearly represents my position on slavery, or any variety of it, including the modern human trafficking kind if you're to go that far. I'm not proposing that some kind of utopia can be found based merely on re-establishing the merits of our founders. We've passed another two centuries since then and times have changed considerably. I believe this topic is whether we favor religious government. According to Alexis de Toqueville's Democracy in America, the success America had achieved since it broke away from the British was an adherance to a high standard of morals -- based on Christian doctrines. Something we no longer can attest to and no questions as to why.

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