View Poll Results: Which option best describes you?

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  • I'm a theist - there is definitely a God/higher power

    14 31.11%
  • I'm a theist - there is a possibility that there is not a God

    5 11.11%
  • I'm an atheist - there is no God

    11 24.44%
  • I'm an atheist - there is a possibility that there is a God

    8 17.78%
  • I self identify as an agnostic, neither atheist nor theist

    3 6.67%
  • Other - I defy the above classifications

    4 8.89%
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Thread: No god, or probably not a God (for an added bonus the invese God Vs. probably God)

  1. #51
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    Re: No god, or probably not a God (for an added bonus the invese God Vs. probably Go

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Because God would be above the laws of nature, while everything in nature is applicable to those laws. Since we matter cannot come from nowhere, then we would need someone who is above nature to create it.
    Oh look, another appeal to ignorance, how special.

    You don't get to just invent an exception and pretend it makes your argument any less laughable. Okay, fine, I'm going to declare that wheverver the universe came from was above the laws of nature. I declare an exception, I win! Two can play at your irrational game.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  2. #52
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    Re: No god, or probably not a God (for an added bonus the invese God Vs. probably Go

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    This applies to nature, not things that are above nature.
    Says you, by fiat.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  3. #53
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    Re: No god, or probably not a God (for an added bonus the invese God Vs. probably Go

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez
    How is it not? It is the only possible explanation. If you have a state where you had nothing, and you now have something, then something had to come from above nature because nature cannot make itself. As for quantum fluctuations, I can't understand that so I'm not even going to try; I'll wait for the problems to be figured out by people smarter than me. That said, I pointed out 5 arguments and that would only deal with 1.
    No, it's the only explanation you can come up with or are willing to entertain. All that proves is that you have a very limited imagination. What you're doing is a classic case of the argument from ignorance. You don't understand it, therefore you posit a solution that you like and declare it to be the truth. Obviously there are lots of other explanations, you just don't like them.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  4. #54
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    Re: No god, or probably not a God (for an added bonus the invese God Vs. probably Go

    Moderator's Warning:
    No god, or probably not a God (for an added bonus the invese  God Vs. probably God)Let's calm this down a bit please. Thank you.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  5. #55
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    Re: No god, or probably not a God (for an added bonus the invese God Vs. probably Go

    I think science is rapidly approaching singularity, and eventually the line between religion and science is going to become blurred. Spirituality, in a lot of ways, is an intuitive description of the things that science develops equations for. I don't see why they should remain at odds, or why it has to come down to theism vs. atheism.

    This TED talk is a good illustration:
    Henry Markram builds a brain in a supercomputer | Video on TED.com

    I encourage everyone, theist or atheist, to watch it.

  6. #56
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    Re: No god, or probably not a God (for an added bonus the invese God Vs. probably Go

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion
    I think science is rapidly approaching singularity, and eventually the line between religion and science is going to become blurred.
    I don't think that's the case at all. Science is rapidly filling in all of the holes that religion once occupied. Religion started when man was ignorant about the world around them. What made lightning? Why did the crops grow? Why did the game animals migrate? People didn't understand it so they made up gods as an explanation. Man has evolved to be a problem-solving and pattern-seeking animal. We don't like not knowing things and, in the absence of a quick and easy explanation, we tend to just make things up. It's not thunder, it's Thor throwing his hammer. The sun rides across the sky in a supernatural chariot. As science came along, particularly modern science, people haven't needed those old explanations anymore, we've found out what really happens. I doubt anyone still thinks Thor is up there tossing his hammer. We know better. That's led religion to evolve as well. No longer are the gods openly responsible for what we see, now they work behind the scenes and are undetectable. Instead of coming down and walking with men, now they reside in invisible realms in the heavens. Instead of openly working miracles, now they play a hiding game where absolutely no one can possibly find evidence for their existence. It's funny that this has happened specifically since man has developed the methodology and the technology to actually examine claims of the divine rationally, isn't it? As we continue to grow and learn more, the need for religion, outside of appealing to the emotionally-weak, will continue to shrink. When you know what reality holds and are not terrified of it, what need have people for imaginary gods?
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  7. #57
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    Re: No god, or probably not a God (for an added bonus the invese God Vs. probably Go

    42

    (I voted other.)

  8. #58
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    Re: No god, or probably not a God (for an added bonus the invese God Vs. probably Go

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    I don't think that's the case at all. Science is rapidly filling in all of the holes that religion once occupied. Religion started when man was ignorant about the world around them. What made lightning? Why did the crops grow? Why did the game animals migrate? People didn't understand it so they made up gods as an explanation. Man has evolved to be a problem-solving and pattern-seeking animal. We don't like not knowing things and, in the absence of a quick and easy explanation, we tend to just make things up. It's not thunder, it's Thor throwing his hammer. The sun rides across the sky in a supernatural chariot. As science came along, particularly modern science, people haven't needed those old explanations anymore, we've found out what really happens. I doubt anyone still thinks Thor is up there tossing his hammer. We know better. That's led religion to evolve as well. No longer are the gods openly responsible for what we see, now they work behind the scenes and are undetectable. Instead of coming down and walking with men, now they reside in invisible realms in the heavens. Instead of openly working miracles, now they play a hiding game where absolutely no one can possibly find evidence for their existence. It's funny that this has happened specifically since man has developed the methodology and the technology to actually examine claims of the divine rationally, isn't it? As we continue to grow and learn more, the need for religion, outside of appealing to the emotionally-weak, will continue to shrink. When you know what reality holds and are not terrified of it, what need have people for imaginary gods?
    The thing is, the Gods aren't imaginary. They are very real to the people who worship them. This all goes back to the individual unique realities that each person creates within their own mind. You shoud check out the link I posted earlier. In order for you to perceive a room, your brain has to basically make a "photocopy" of the room within the confines of its own neural net, which it then translates into something you experience. It is therefore completely possible for people to experience an event as something related to God, if that is how their own neural net has developed to process the world. The same goes for the very scientists who are doing neuroscience research... they too have a conceptual reality that they are working within, it is just a scientific one.

    All of these perceptual realities are possible and they exist simultaneously, given the fact that all of the people who embody them exist simultaneously. We can pretend that there is common reality and have practical application for it, but when it comes to Gods or no Gods, there is no common reality. So stop pretending there is and that theists are wrong. They can believe what ever they want and it is "right" to them.

  9. #59
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    Re: No god, or probably not a God (for an added bonus the invese God Vs. probably Go

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    I think science is rapidly approaching singularity, and eventually the line between religion and science is going to become blurred. Spirituality, in a lot of ways, is an intuitive description of the things that science develops equations for. I don't see why they should remain at odds, or why it has to come down to theism vs. atheism.

    This TED talk is a good illustration:
    Henry Markram builds a brain in a supercomputer | Video on TED.com

    I encourage everyone, theist or atheist, to watch it.
    Thanks for posting this - very interesting!!
    Fool me once, shame on you.
    Fool me twice....shame on me.

  10. #60
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    Re: No god, or probably not a God (for an added bonus the invese God Vs. probably Go

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    The thing is, the Gods aren't imaginary. They are very real to the people who worship them. This all goes back to the individual unique realities that each person creates within their own mind. You shoud check out the link I posted earlier. In order for you to perceive a room, your brain has to basically make a "photocopy" of the room within the confines of its own neural net, which it then translates into something you experience. It is therefore completely possible for people to experience an event as something related to God, if that is how their own neural net has developed to process the world. The same goes for the very scientists who are doing neuroscience research... they too have a conceptual reality that they are working within, it is just a scientific one.

    All of these perceptual realities are possible and they exist simultaneously, given the fact that all of the people who embody them exist simultaneously. We can pretend that there is common reality and have practical application for it, but when it comes to Gods or no Gods, there is no common reality. So stop pretending there is and that theists are wrong. They can believe what ever they want and it is "right" to them.
    By that standard god is as real as any hallucination or delusion

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