View Poll Results: Which option best describes you?

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  • I'm a theist - there is definitely a God/higher power

    14 31.11%
  • I'm a theist - there is a possibility that there is not a God

    5 11.11%
  • I'm an atheist - there is no God

    11 24.44%
  • I'm an atheist - there is a possibility that there is a God

    8 17.78%
  • I self identify as an agnostic, neither atheist nor theist

    3 6.67%
  • Other - I defy the above classifications

    4 8.89%
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Thread: No god, or probably not a God (for an added bonus the invese God Vs. probably God)

  1. #31
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    Re: No god, or probably not a God (for an added bonus the invese God Vs. probably Go

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Then how do natural laws explain the phenomenon of existence if you can't get something from nothing?
    You assume we know all there is to know. I know better. Secondly, we can and have created matter from nothing.

  2. #32
    Norville Rogers
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    Re: No god, or probably not a God (for an added bonus the invese God Vs. probably Go

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Matter had to come from somewhere. And you can't say that there are no arguments when you didn't even look up my link to the quinque viae.
    If matter had to come from somewhere, god had to come from somewhere. If god can have always been, matter (or energy as it were) can have always been. The unmoved mover is not a good argument.

    Personally, though, I doubt that the question "where did matter come from" has any meaning. Quantum physics has repeatedly shown that your mammalian-hunter-gatherer-evolved brains are incapable of truly understanding the universe. The state of the universe before the big bang probably has no analog in the discrete, physical world we perceive.

  3. #33
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    Re: No god, or probably not a God (for an added bonus the invese God Vs. probably Go

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Random vacuum fluctuations (quantum fluctuations). It's the creation of a matter/anti-matter pair that exist for a short period of time. They have a measurable effect, most notably the Lamb shift and the effective charge of the electron.
    But this still has the problem of time and space. Where did these things come from?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  4. #34
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    Re: No god, or probably not a God (for an added bonus the invese God Vs. probably Go

    Quote Originally Posted by Kernel Sanders View Post
    If matter had to come from somewhere, god had to come from somewhere.
    This applies to nature, not things that are above nature.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  5. #35
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    Re: No god, or probably not a God (for an added bonus the invese God Vs. probably Go

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    You assume we know all there is to know. I know better. Secondly, we can and have created matter from nothing.
    we have? when?

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


  6. #36
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    Re: No god, or probably not a God (for an added bonus the invese God Vs. probably Go

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    But this still has the problem of time and space. Where did these things come from?
    Where indeed. The inflation model, which is theory but quantum fluctuations can help explain part of it, explains time-space as the expansion of the universe from the Big Bang. Though that too has problems associated with the theory. In the end, it's not known. And there's your answer. So at this point we have a choice. We can say that either there is some natural cause that we just don't know at this point. Or we can say it was magic. Gods are magical answers. Maybe it was magic, but I see no evidence of it in our current incarnation of the universe. I'm more apt to say that it is well more probable that there is a natural cause of which we do not yet know.

    There is nothing we've observed yet which would necessitate a god.
    Last edited by Ikari; 10-19-10 at 02:10 PM.
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  7. #37
    Norville Rogers
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    Re: No god, or probably not a God (for an added bonus the invese God Vs. probably Go

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    This applies to nature, not things that are above nature.
    Then the unmoved mover isn't an argument at all. It lays down premises that must be true, then answers the question with an answer that violates all of the premises. It's exactly equivalent to saying "we don't know where matter came from, therefore god exists." That is not an argument for the existence of god

  8. #38
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    Re: No god, or probably not a God (for an added bonus the invese God Vs. probably Go

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    we have? when?
    Over a decade ago. Out Of Pure Light, Physicists Create Particles Of Matter

  9. #39
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    Re: No god, or probably not a God (for an added bonus the invese God Vs. probably Go

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Where indeed. The inflation model, which is theory but quantum fluctuations can help explain part of it, explains time-space as the expansion of the universe from the Big Bang. Though that too has problems associated with the theory. In the end, it's not known. And there's your answer. So at this point we have a choice. We can say that either there is some natural cause that we just don't know at this point. Or we can say it was magic. Gods are magical answers. Maybe it was magic, but I see no evidence of it in our current incarnation of the universe. I'm more apt to say that it is well more probable that there is a natural cause of which we do not yet know.

    There is nothing we've observed yet which would necessitate a god.
    I think this is the core issue with many "believers". They are not able to accept 'not knowing' and must attribute an answer to *something*, even if they just make it up. This has been going on since the dawn of mankind. Many of us are perfectly okay saying "I/We don't know yet." It would seem few "believers" are as comfortable saying that.

  10. #40
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    Re: No god, or probably not a God (for an added bonus the invese God Vs. probably Go

    Quote Originally Posted by Kernel Sanders View Post
    Then the unmoved mover isn't an argument at all. It lays down premises that must be true, then answers the question with an answer that violates all of the premises. It's exactly equivalent to saying "we don't know where matter came from, therefore god exists." That is not an argument for the existence of god
    How is it not? It is the only possible explanation. If you have a state where you had nothing, and you now have something, then something had to come from above nature because nature cannot make itself. As for quantum fluctuations, I can't understand that so I'm not even going to try; I'll wait for the problems to be figured out by people smarter than me. That said, I pointed out 5 arguments and that would only deal with 1.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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