View Poll Results: Does water have a taste?

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Thread: Does water have a taste? Is atheism a religion?

  1. #121
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    Re: Does water have a taste? Is atheism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I know there's examples in this thread, but they generally didn't step forward until confronted.

    And no, generally thiests don't normally state that they think there may not be a god. And I generally don't assume that people who state that they believe in god actually believe that there may not be a god but they just think there is.
    Its not fashionable to have your lack of faith bared on a platter, although there are many religious people who "have their faith tested". They tend to assert their positions strongly to validify their stance both to themselves and to others.
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    Re: Does water have a taste? Is atheism a religion?

    Stating an absolute is still stating a belief. If I state something is blue, and that thing is really blue, the fact its literally IS blue and factually blue doesn't make it not a belief because its still my view of what the truth is concerning said object.

    The fact that a belief can be proven true doesn't make it not a belief.

    It seems to be that you're arguing that one can only have faith in something that is unprovable or untestable or unverifiable at least in a minimum form.

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    Re: Does water have a taste? Is atheism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by marduc View Post
    Its not fashionable to have your lack of faith bared on a platter, although there are many religious people who "have their faith tested". They tend to assert their positions strongly to validify their stance both to themselves and to others.
    I understand why they do it. I understand to a point why athiests do it. I don't begrudge either side.

    What I'm saying though is when your sides are so self conciously, primarily due to what your own side has done with the words and view points and the demonizing of them, of a particular label but that label applies to you based on the fact you fail to actually make yourself clear or honestly present your point to not be upset or surprised or condenscending when people react to what you're actually saying rather than assuming what you actually mean.

    I think what many athiests have done to the notion of faith and turning it into a "bad word" that they're afraid of having applied to them because it gives more "fodder" for people to throw agains them is very similar to the self-consiously and insecure notion of religious people being unable to "question" the belief of the divine as something that isn't infallably correct and unquestionably true.

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    Re: Does water have a taste? Is atheism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Stating an absolute is still stating a belief. If I state something is blue, and that thing is really blue, the fact its literally IS blue and factually blue doesn't make it not a belief because its still my view of what the truth is concerning said object.

    The fact that a belief can be proven true doesn't make it not a belief.

    It seems to be that you're arguing that one can only have faith in something that is unprovable or untestable or unverifiable at least in a minimum form.
    It depends on what you are trying to convey. If I look at something and it's blue, I say "this is blue". It's an absolute statement conveying knowledge about the object itself. I know it's blue. A measured quantity is less belief because in measurement there are no longer probabilities. The wavefunction collapses to one of the allowed eigenstates. Stating a belief and stating a fact are two different things. Stating a belief does not convey knowledge. I don't believe in a god. That statement doesn't say "gods don't exist", it's states the negative belief in the existence of gods. See? It doesn't convey knowledge. I do not know if gods exist or not, I simply do not believe them to exist.

    The fact that a belief can be proven true doesn't make it not a belief. But once that belief is measured, it is no longer a belief but a fact as it now has associated with it knowledge and information. And thus the system goes from some superposition of states to a collapsed wavefunction complete with change in entropy. Measured results are measured results. Belief can become measured result if you have the correct meter.
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  5. #125
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    Re: Does water have a taste? Is atheism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I understand why they do it. I understand to a point why athiests do it. I don't begrudge either side.

    What I'm saying though is when your sides are so self conciously, primarily due to what your own side has done with the words and view points and the demonizing of them, of a particular label but that label applies to you based on the fact you fail to actually make yourself clear or honestly present your point to not be upset or surprised or condenscending when people react to what you're actually saying rather than assuming what you actually mean.

    I think what many athiests have done to the notion of faith and turning it into a "bad word" that they're afraid of having applied to them because it gives more "fodder" for people to throw agains them is very similar to the self-consiously and insecure notion of religious people being unable to "question" the belief of the divine as something that isn't infallably correct and unquestionably true.
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    Re: Does water have a taste? Is atheism a religion?

    I find this debate kind of silly and perhaps pointless. Maybe it has a point on a political level, but on a personal level it doesn't really matter.

    It looks just like a battle of the minds. People who believe in God are used to having a belief (let's call it mindset #1) and atheists are used to not caring, being skeptical, or not believing in God (mindset #2). These are two totally different ways of viewing reality so naturally they will try to ascribe their respective realities to one another.

    Theists are trying to ascribe an affirmative belief to atheists because that's what their world revolves around. Their minds are accustomed to a theist reality and so they will naturally try to superimpose that onto others when trying to consider their realities. That's where this whole "atheism is a belief" aspect comes in. It's a failure to rise above one's own system. Not that it's their fault, everyone is human and everyone has a mind. But it's important to note that it's an attempt to judge a different framework from within the trapping of one's own framework. It's the same fallacy that is employed when religion tries to become scientific as in the case of creationism.

    The tool of atheists tends to be science and so based on the probability analysis of science, God in all likelihood does not exist. The absence of facts and data leads to the absence of belief. It is a neutral position as opposed to a negative one. Those who claim that God does absolutely exist, or absolutely doesn't exist, are living in a fantasy land for sure. Atheists who aren't militant or extremist take the neutral road.
    Last edited by Orion; 10-18-10 at 04:44 PM.

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    Re: Does water have a taste? Is atheism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    I find this debate kind of silly and perhaps pointless. Maybe it has a point on a political level, but on a personal level it doesn't really matter.

    It looks just like a battle of the minds. People who believe in God are used to having a belief (let's call it mindset #1) and atheists are used to not caring, being skeptical, or not believing in God (mindset #2). These are two totally different ways of viewing reality so naturally they will try to ascribe their respective realities to one another.

    Theists are trying to ascribe an affirmative belief to atheists because that's what their world revolves around. Their minds are accustomed to a theist reality and so they will naturally try to superimpose that onto others when trying to consider their realities. That's where this whole "atheism is a belief" aspect comes in. It's a failure to rise above one's own system. Not that it's their fault, everyone is human and everyone has a mind. But it's important to note that it's an attempt to judge a different framework from within the trapping of one's own framework. It's the same fallacy that is employed when religion tries to become scientific as in the case of creationism.

    The tool of atheists tends to be science and so based on the probability analysis of science, God in all likelihood does not exist. The absence of facts and data leads to the absence of belief. It is a neutral position as opposed to a negative one. Those who claim that God does absolutely exist, or absolutely doesn't exist, are living in a fantasy land for sure. Atheists who aren't militant or extremist take the neutral road.
    I was on the verge of a reply along these lines of one way of seeing things not connecting or able to cross the gulf into anothers way of seeing things, but you beat me to it, and put it well, so quoted for truth.
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    Re: Does water have a taste? Is atheism a religion?

    Would you not equally say then that Athiests who continually belittle or insult or question with logic people who are thiests for not listening to science or logic and relying on something as "silly" as belief or faith are equally operating from their own system where things MUST be provable, MUST concrete, MUST be tangable for it to exist or be worthy of having trust placed in it?

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    Re: Does water have a taste? Is atheism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    *bangs head on keyboard*

    The word NOT is there for a reason.
    Not believing is not the absence of belief. It is simply a negative belief.

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    Re: Does water have a taste? Is atheism a religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Would you not equally say then that Athiests who continually belittle or insult or question with logic people who are thiests for not listening to science or logic and relying on something as "silly" as belief or faith are equally operating from their own system where things MUST be provable, MUST concrete, MUST be tangable for it to exist or be worthy of having trust placed in it?
    I think there can be a lot of questionable behavior within subsets of the atheist community. Particularly within the anti-theist branch. There are those who condemn religion in total or attack religion in general due to their personal beliefs about religious institutions. Religion can, and often does, have positive effects for people's lives. And if one wishes to believe in a god, they are more than free to do so. There is plenty of worth within religious institutions and people can draw experience and community from them which positively affects their lives. This is a measured fact. Religion can also be abused and twisted; as seen in almost every theocracy which has ever existed on this planet. The use and application of religion is a personal choice and can work out either way. You can have a lot of personal growth and acceptance, or you can have the Westburo (sp?) Baptist folk who suck balls. The same is true on the atheist side. You can have people who have their negative belief structure (if you choose to call it such) and those who are anti-theist and go out to attack religion at every opportunity. However, atheism in general doesn't carry with it the community as there is not reall a community structure set up within atheism.
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