View Poll Results: Is Cesar Chavez someone we should celebrate?

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  • Yes

    7 33.33%
  • No

    8 38.10%
  • Jimmy Hoffa

    6 28.57%
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Thread: Should we celebrate Cesar Chavez?

  1. #31
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    Re: Should we celebrate Cesar Chavez?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Because he knew it would bring down wages for migrant farm workers most likely. Like I said, he didn't care about the plight that his programs incurred on those south of the border, he had his special group that he was going to help and didn't care who it hurt.
    I don't think CC had any obligation to people below the border. He was fighting for the rights of people hired to do work here in the USA. People already hired. He was not fighting for the rights of Mexicans or others who lived SoB.

    Trying to demonize a man like him? Just curious: What have you ever done for anyone that would wow the world?

  2. #32
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    Re: Should we celebrate Cesar Chavez?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajay View Post
    Fighting for real workers and not imaginary ones is what CC did. If a farm needed 30 wokers a day, they hired 30 workers a day or their crops didn't get ppicked.

    Your argument is silly at best.
    So the Mexicans that could no longer work because of the closed shop policy are imaginary?

    If a farm needs 30 workers a day and can pay them $25 for the day, but they now demand $50 for the day, what are they going to do? Produce less (because price per unit increases when you produce less) and hire less (because the company needs to stay profitable).

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  3. #33
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    Re: Should we celebrate Cesar Chavez?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajay View Post
    I don't think CC had any obligation to people below the border. He was fighting for the rights of people hired to do work here in the USA. People already hired. He was not fighting for the rights of Mexicans or others who lived SoB.
    Yet they became worse off because of it. I could lift 100 people out of poverty in this country by enslaving say the city of Los Angeles. Because I helped the 100 people am I an angel, or am I a devil for enslaving the city?

    Trying to demonize a man like him? Just curious: What have you ever done for anyone that would wow the world?
    Irrelevant.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  4. #34
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    Re: Should we celebrate Cesar Chavez?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Increase your skills, get some charity, etc. But it's no excuse for not working at all.
    Not saying it is. But you do realize that what you are saying is that management sets the terms and that labor has no choice but to accept them? That is the source of the exact problems that labor laws were enacted to correct. If you have no choice in selling a good, you have no bargaining power.

  5. #35
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    Re: Should we celebrate Cesar Chavez?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    Not saying it is. But you do realize that what you are saying is that management sets the terms and that labor has no choice but to accept them? That is the source of the exact problems that labor laws were enacted to correct. If you have no choice in selling a good, you have no bargaining power.
    There's no competition in business? The company that offers the highest wages won't get all of the best workers?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Should we celebrate Cesar Chavez?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    So the Mexicans that could no longer work because of the closed shop policy are imaginary?

    If a farm needs 30 workers a day and can pay them $25 for the day, but they now demand $50 for the day, what are they going to do? Produce less (because price per unit increases when you produce less) and hire less (because the company needs to stay profitable).
    Facts is American farms did not do this. Your theory is not a fact.

    Mexicans are not guaranteed a job on American farms. btw, more than Mexicans worked on farms and got better lives because of CC's work.

    I wonder why so many Mexicans and others who are farm workers loved CC? I guess that weren't as concerned as you are for others and they aren't as smart as you are, eh?

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    Re: Should we celebrate Cesar Chavez?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Yet they became worse off because of it. I could lift 100 people out of poverty in this country by enslaving say the city of Los Angeles. Because I helped the 100 people am I an angel, or am I a devil for enslaving the city?



    Irrelevant.
    Who became worse off? People south of the border who had no guarantee jobs or the actual people who were hired?

  8. #38
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    Re: Should we celebrate Cesar Chavez?

    You need to read. I didn't say that there was a static number of jobs (which is what that fallacy you like to bring up all the time is principled on). I said there was a finite number of jobs. Jesus. And you can rally all you want against measurement; but between your delusions and actual measurement...I'm going with measurement. There are not infinite numbers of jobs out there, there is a finite number. There is a finite number of workers available to fill those jobs. You can look at the two numbers and see which one is bigger. During the era where many of workplace hazards were common, particularly during times such as the Industrial Revolution, there were far more people looking for jobs than actual jobs in existence. This environment particularly destroys your "well if there were a safer place to work, people would work there" argument. People took whatever job they could, and if they caused problems or got hurt, they found themselves in the street on their asses as there was a LARGE labor pool to draw from and no regulation or oversight.

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Innovation at what cost? Goldenboy makes this argument all the time of minimum wage allowing for capital investment. That's great, but it also creates current misery by forcing people out of work. Is that a good tradeoff? Of course not! If it was so good, then companies would have done it before the introduction of the minimum wage.
    You're arguing for lack of oversight and regulation to such a degree that it would put people in a much worse position. There is a good tradeoff. Better work conditions, better living salaries, and investment into innovation. Innovations which increase productivity and efficiency so that they ultimately will create cheaper products. Companies would not have done so before the introduction of the oversight because there is initial investment. If there is a large enough labor pool to draw from you can cycle through it without having to invest in the new science or engineering. The new science or engineering may drive you to a better spot, but the companies are stuck in a local minimum which may not be (and usually isn't) the global minimum. Government can be used to drive to the global minimum.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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  9. #39
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    Re: Should we celebrate Cesar Chavez?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajay View Post
    Facts is American farms did not do this. Your theory is not a fact.
    Proof that farms would not contract if labor became more expensive?

    Mexicans are not guaranteed a job on American farms. btw, more than Mexicans worked on farms and got better lives because of CC's work.
    Prove that more Mexicans worked because of his efforts.

    I wonder why so many Mexicans and others who are farm workers loved CC? I guess that weren't as concerned as you are for others and they aren't as smart as you are, eh?
    They don't look at the unintended consequences. They're called unintended consequences for a reason. They only see that Cesar Chavez fought for higher wages. They ignore the fact that this necessarily caused higher unemployment among migrant farm workers.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  10. #40
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    Re: Should we celebrate Cesar Chavez?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    You need to read. I didn't say that there was a static number of jobs (which is what that fallacy you like to bring up all the time is principled on). I said there was a finite number of jobs.
    Does it really matter? You're basically arguing that there must be a perpetual number of people who are forced out of work. It's still nonsense.

    Jesus.
    Real mature of you.

    And you can rally all you want against measurement; but between your delusions and actual measurement...I'm going with measurement. There are not infinite numbers of jobs out there, there is a finite number. There is a finite number of workers available to fill those jobs. You can look at the two numbers and see which one is bigger. During the era where many of workplace hazards were common, particularly during times such as the Industrial Revolution, there were far more people looking for jobs than actual jobs in existence. This environment particularly destroys your "well if there were a safer place to work, people would work there" argument. People took whatever job they could, and if they caused problems or got hurt, they found themselves in the street on their asses as there was a LARGE labor pool to draw from and no regulation or oversight.
    Okay, I've had enough of this. Show me the actual numbers.

    You're arguing for lack of oversight and regulation to such a degree that it would put people in a much worse position. There is a good tradeoff. Better work conditions, better living salaries, and investment into innovation. Innovations which increase productivity and efficiency so that they ultimately will create cheaper products. Companies would not have done so before the introduction of the oversight because there is initial investment. If there is a large enough labor pool to draw from you can cycle through it without having to invest in the new science or engineering. The new science or engineering may drive you to a better spot, but the companies are stuck in a local minimum which may not be (and usually isn't) the global minimum. Government can be used to drive to the global minimum.
    If what you're saying is true, then a company could have made a ton of money with safer working conditions. They would have gotten all the labor. Since they didn't, there can only be two reasons: it was prohibitively expensive and it really just wasn't that big of a deal. If it was a bigger deal, then the cost would have been worth it, but the benefits obviously did not outweigh the costs.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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