View Poll Results: Is Cesar Chavez someone we should celebrate?

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  • Yes

    7 33.33%
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    8 38.10%
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Thread: Should we celebrate Cesar Chavez?

  1. #21
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    Re: Should we celebrate Cesar Chavez?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No, this is incorrect. It's the other way around. There was saturation of labor market. Meaning that there were more people looking for jobs than jobs to be had.
    What kind of libertarian believes this? People are paid by according to their marginal productivity. There is no such thing as a fixed number of jobs. The Luddite Fallcy lost popularity long ago.

    The way your method works is only if the opposite is true. There were no safer jobs available because there were no regulations for safer jobs and if anyone bitched, they could be thrown out and you take the next guy in line. Same if someone got hurt. There is no incentive to create safe work conditions when the labor pool is so large compared to the number of available jobs. In fact, there is incentive NOT to do it. Because making something safer is inherently going to cost more money up front. In a strictly capitalist sense, a company wouldn't take that short term loss to make a safer work conditions when they could be making more money and facing no repercussions for doing so. Which is why we then use government force against the companies to install some amount of work safety measurements.
    This all assumes no competition! Are you trying to tell me that there was no competition?

    Short term: Safer work conditions. Long term: More innovation and cheaper products.
    More regulation creates cheaper products? How do you figure?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  2. #22
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    Re: Should we celebrate Cesar Chavez?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    A Mexican is a person. Would you be fine if we were all well fed while the people in all the other countries were dying of some flesh-eating virus?
    I'd be for helping them as long as we didn't have to break our own bank to do it, or risk spreading the disease here.

    A Mexican may be a person, but they aren't a person I have much interest in.

  3. #23
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    Re: Should we celebrate Cesar Chavez?

    Quote Originally Posted by Patria Antiqua View Post
    I'd be for helping them as long as we didn't have to break our own bank to do it, or risk spreading the disease here.

    A Mexican may be a person, but they aren't a person I have much interest in.
    And what is the fundamental difference between an American and Mexican exept for where they live? What makes an American inherently worth more to you?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  4. #24
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    Re: Should we celebrate Cesar Chavez?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    What kind of libertarian believes this? People are paid by according to their marginal productivity. There is no such thing as a fixed number of jobs. The Luddite Fallcy lost popularity long ago.
    This is measured reality. I don't know where you believe infinite jobs come from, but it doesn't happen. There were lines of workers looking for jobs, there was a much greater demand for jobs than actual jobs available. In fact, everything runs a bit on this principle which is why there is unemployment. In the real job there are not infinity jobs. The number of jobs is finite, as is the number of people available for the work force. Thus you can count. How many jobs are there. How many people are looking for jobs. Which number is bigger. Before a lot of the regulation, particularly during eras such as the Industrial Revolution, there was a saturation of the labor market. There were well more people looking for jobs than jobs available. This is measured fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    This all assumes no competition! Are you trying to tell me that there was no competition?
    No, this is incorrect. It does not assume no competition. It assumes a finite number of jobs. Which is true. Less you want to show me where the infinite jobs are at.

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    More regulation creates cheaper products? How do you figure?
    Innovation. Much like the Ford's Assembly Line made for cheaper products due to standardization of parts and increased efficiency of creation. Long term is that regulation causes innovation. Instead of paying a ton of people to pick strawberrys, you make a machine. The machine becomes much cheaper and efficient. But there's initial investment, which is why it is the long term effect. If you can pay a ton of people piss poor wages to work the fields, there's no incentive to hire the engineer to make a machine. Slave labor stifles innovation. Without innovation there is stagnation. Stagnation is slow death.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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  5. #25
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    Re: Should we celebrate Cesar Chavez?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    This is measured reality. I don't know where you believe infinite jobs come from, but it doesn't happen. There were lines of workers looking for jobs, there was a much greater demand for jobs than actual jobs available. In fact, everything runs a bit on this principle which is why there is unemployment. In the real job there are not infinity jobs. The number of jobs is finite, as is the number of people available for the work force. Thus you can count. How many jobs are there. How many people are looking for jobs. Which number is bigger. Before a lot of the regulation, particularly during eras such as the Industrial Revolution, there was a saturation of the labor market. There were well more people looking for jobs than jobs available. This is measured fact.
    Lump of labour fallacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    No, this is incorrect. It does not assume no competition. It assumes a finite number of jobs. Which is true. Less you want to show me where the infinite jobs are at.
    Lump of labour fallacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Innovation. Much like the Ford's Assembly Line made for cheaper products due to standardization of parts and increased efficiency of creation. Long term is that regulation causes innovation. Instead of paying a ton of people to pick strawberrys, you make a machine. The machine becomes much cheaper and efficient. But there's initial investment, which is why it is the long term effect. If you can pay a ton of people piss poor wages to work the fields, there's no incentive to hire the engineer to make a machine. Slave labor stifles innovation. Without innovation there is stagnation. Stagnation is slow death.
    Innovation at what cost? Goldenboy makes this argument all the time of minimum wage allowing for capital investment. That's great, but it also creates current misery by forcing people out of work. Is that a good tradeoff? Of course not! If it was so good, then companies would have done it before the introduction of the minimum wage.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  6. #26
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    Re: Should we celebrate Cesar Chavez?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Because he knew it would bring down wages for migrant farm workers most likely. Like I said, he didn't care about the plight that his programs incurred on those south of the border, he had his special group that he was going to help and didn't care who it hurt.
    In other words, the man had his priorities in order.

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    What's the difference between an American and someone outside of the country, except for the mere area where they live?
    There is more to being an American than living here. There is an American culture, a sense of identity, that comes with being a citizen. There is nothing wrong with being a Mexican, but it is not the same as being an American and they have their own nation to be concerned with-- just as Americans should be concerned with our nation first and foremost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    This common argument against the use of restricted working hours to reduce unemployment has recently been questioned, with one scholar arguing that "substituting a dubious fallacy claim for an authentic economic theory may have obstructed fruitful dialogue about working time and the appropriate policies for regulating it".[3] Walker argues that the idea that the lump of labour is a fallacy often goes unsubstantiated, and that the reduction of working hours can have similar labour-saving impacts as the introduction of technology into the production process.
    This "lump" looks and smells an awful lot like economists labeling an argument a "fallacy" simply because they do not like its implications.

    It is true that there is neither a fixed demand for labor nor a fixed supply of labor, but this does not change the fact that labor is a commodity and it is still governed by the laws of supply and demand. When supply far outstrips demand, as it has for all unskilled labor since the Industrial Revolution (save World War II), there is no effective competition for workers.

  7. #27
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    Re: Should we celebrate Cesar Chavez?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    It is true that there is neither a fixed demand for labor nor a fixed supply of labor, but this does not change the fact that labor is a commodity and it is still governed by the laws of supply and demand. When supply far outstrips demand, as it has for all unskilled labor since the Industrial Revolution (save World War II), there is no effective competition for workers.
    What happens to the price of a good when there is a lot of it and not much demand? The price goes down. It doesn't remain unsold. It is priced at a price that is just low enough so that it will move.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  8. #28
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    Re: Should we celebrate Cesar Chavez?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    What happens to the price of a good when there is a lot of it and not much demand? The price goes down. It doesn't remain unsold. It is priced at a price that is just low enough so that it will move.
    And what happens when the price of a man's labor is less than the price of his food and rent?

  9. #29
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    Re: Should we celebrate Cesar Chavez?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    And what happens when the price of a man's labor is less than the price of his food and rent?
    Increase your skills, get some charity, etc. But it's no excuse for not working at all.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  10. #30
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    Re: Should we celebrate Cesar Chavez?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    In case you don't know who he is (I'm just not sure how popular he was outside of California), he was a union organizer for the UFW (United Farm Workers) who tried to raise wages for migrant farm workers. The UFW doesn't do much anymore; they've pretty much sunk into obscurity. The famous work of the UFW, at its height, were the boycotts and strikes.



    Emphasis added mine

    From Making Economic Sense by Murray Rothbard.

    I'd also like to add the commentary that by pushing these wages up as he tried to do, Cesar Chavez effectively limited the number of jobs available. So while he was trying to help those who were picking grapes up in California, who knows what misery he brought upon those still south of the border who were no longer allowed due to union practices (you have to keep our labor if you're going to keep wages up). If you think migrant farm wages are bad, imagine not even being able to earn that!
    Fighting for real workers and not imaginary ones is what CC did. If a farm needed 30 wokers a day, they hired 30 workers a day or their crops didn't get ppicked.

    Your argument is silly at best.

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