View Poll Results: Is Cesar Chavez someone we should celebrate?

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  • Yes

    7 33.33%
  • No

    8 38.10%
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Thread: Should we celebrate Cesar Chavez?

  1. #11
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    Re: Should we celebrate Cesar Chavez?

    People worked in unsafe conditions because it was better than the alternative.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Should we celebrate Cesar Chavez?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    People worked in unsafe conditions because it was better than the alternative.
    That they did. However, we learned that the option of "Be maimed and then starve to death when you are fired or starve to death right now" wasn't a valid choice which we were going to accept and we implemented protections against that. And it brought with it many innovations. If you have slave labor and a large labor market; you'll stifle innovation.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  3. #13
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    Re: Should we celebrate Cesar Chavez?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    That they did. However, we learned that the option of "Be maimed and then starve to death when you are fired or starve to death right now" wasn't a valid choice which we were going to accept and we implemented protections against that. And it brought with it many innovations. If you have slave labor and a large labor market; you'll stifle innovation.
    If safer jobs were available, then why wouldn't people take those jobs? Your argument really depends on a position that it was basically a monopoly market, and that wasn't the case at all.

    All other things being equal, what is the result if you force companies to provide safer working conditions?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Should we celebrate Cesar Chavez?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    All other things being equal, what is the result if you force companies to provide safer working conditions?
    A slippery slope to socialism thats what!

  5. #15
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    Re: Should we celebrate Cesar Chavez?

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    A slippery slope to socialism thats what!
    Lower wages and higher prices is what I was looking for (or lower employment if wages can't be dropped).

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Should we celebrate Cesar Chavez?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    If safer jobs were available, then why wouldn't people take those jobs? Your argument really depends on a position that it was basically a monopoly market, and that wasn't the case at all.
    No, this is incorrect. It's the other way around. There was saturation of labor market. Meaning that there were more people looking for jobs than jobs to be had. The way your method works is only if the opposite is true. There were no safer jobs available because there were no regulations for safer jobs and if anyone bitched, they could be thrown out and you take the next guy in line. Same if someone got hurt. There is no incentive to create safe work conditions when the labor pool is so large compared to the number of available jobs. In fact, there is incentive NOT to do it. Because making something safer is inherently going to cost more money up front. In a strictly capitalist sense, a company wouldn't take that short term loss to make a safer work conditions when they could be making more money and facing no repercussions for doing so. Which is why we then use government force against the companies to install some amount of work safety measurements.

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    All other things being equal, what is the result if you force companies to provide safer working conditions?
    Short term: Safer work conditions. Long term: More innovation and cheaper products.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Should we celebrate Cesar Chavez?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    What's the difference between an American and someone outside of the country, except for the mere area where they live?
    A Mexican has his own country to worry about. I have no interest or solidarity with a Mexican.

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    Re: Should we celebrate Cesar Chavez?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Because he knew it would bring down wages for migrant farm workers most likely. Like I said, he didn't care about the plight that his programs incurred on those south of the border, he had his special group that he was going to help and didn't care who it hurt.
    Yeah, but you could argue that the agribusinesses whose labor he unionized didn't care about the plight their businesses incurred to their own employees, and yet we still celebrate businesses and commerce in this country.

  9. #19
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    Re: Should we celebrate Cesar Chavez?

    Quote Originally Posted by Patria Antiqua View Post
    A Mexican has his own country to worry about. I have no interest or solidarity with a Mexican.
    A Mexican is a person. Would you be fine if we were all well fed while the people in all the other countries were dying of some flesh-eating virus?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  10. #20
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    Re: Should we celebrate Cesar Chavez?

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    Yeah, but you could argue that the agribusinesses whose labor he unionized didn't care about the plight their businesses incurred to their own employees, and yet we still celebrate businesses and commerce in this country.
    Businesses don't care. That's why they offer the lowest wage they can. Unfortunately for them competition is a reality and so workers will go where they see the greatest potential benefit. If they can't find a grape-picking job where they can get paid $100 an hour then the labor probably isn't worth that much.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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