View Poll Results: What matters more; historical facts or historical fiction passed off as facts?

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  • Historical facts backed by documentation

    12 85.71%
  • Historical fiction that was passed off as facts

    2 14.29%
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Thread: What matters more historical facts or historical fiction passed off as facts?

  1. #31
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    Re: What matters more historical facts or historical fiction passed off as facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    What are facts in your definition?
    Something that exists in reality and is independant of our minds (unless we are talking about something like brain chemistry or certain body functions, then the line gets a little blurry)

    For example, this message board. It is fact that it exists. It is fact that it is in an operational state.

  2. #32
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    Re: What matters more historical facts or historical fiction passed off as facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Something that exists in reality and is independant of our minds (unless we are talking about something like brain chemistry, then the line gets a little blurry)

    For example, this message board. It is fact that it exists. It is fact that it is in an operational state.
    Alright, that's a very vague and all encompassing definition that really doesn't help with your argument. A truth/fact for me is based upon historical documentation in regards to this thread. If an event happens and is documented to have happened by multiple first hand sources then it is a fact/truth. Omitting important facts is a lie designed to deceive people to believe a falsehood. The person relaying the information is not being truthful. The basis of ignorance is not knowing the the truth and since a lie that is devoid of facts it is ignorance.

  3. #33
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    Re: What matters more historical facts or historical fiction passed off as facts?

    As a huge fan of history and being one who referrers to it much more than anyone I know of as a main stay of a great many of my posts, and facts are by far more important in that context.

    However if there were a another choice offered, one might learn just a bit more about the mind and nature of man and the effects on past history and possibly future events.

    The question is: What has had the most effect on History, Historical facts or Historical Fiction that has been passed off as fact?

    The reason I bring this up is is because Propaganda used as Historical Fact has been used through out history by Dictators a and Would be Dictators to change or effect current and future events.

    Then once the "propaganda" has had the desired results if the propagandist was successful they write that history as fact, and it then had a further effect on both current, and future events.

    It gets to be quite a philosophical discussion with deep meaning if you really look at all sides and include the psychological aspects.

  4. #34
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    Re: What matters more historical facts or historical fiction passed off as facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Councilman View Post
    As a huge fan of history and being one who referrers to it much more than anyone I know of as a main stay of a great many of my posts, and facts are by far more important in that context.

    However if there were a another choice offered, one might learn just a bit more about the mind and nature of man and the effects on past history and possibly future events.

    The question is: What has had the most effect on History, Historical facts or Historical Fiction that has been passed off as fact?

    The reason I bring this up is is because Propaganda used as Historical Fact has been used through out history by Dictators a and Would be Dictators to change or effect current and future events.

    Then once the "propaganda" has had the desired results if the propagandist was successful they write that history as fact, and it then had a further effect on both current, and future events.

    It gets to be quite a philosophical discussion with deep meaning if you really look at all sides and include the psychological aspects.
    A nice observation. I'd like to point out that propaganda has a bad tendency of being found out as a lie. Look at the current re-examination of Lincoln and other presidents by historians. What was passed down as fact was in reality a falsehood passed off as fact. This leads to the people that believe the falsehood as a fact telling the other people that have the truth that they're revising history. Is it truly revising history or is it telling the truth?

  5. #35
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    Re: What matters more historical facts or historical fiction passed off as facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    Alright, that's a very vague and all encompassing definition that really doesn't help with your argument. A truth/fact for me is based upon historical documentation in regards to this thread. If an event happens and is documented to have happened by multiple first hand sources then it is a fact/truth.
    All of this is not relevent. Why did you take me on this wild goose chase?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    Omitting important facts is a lie designed to deceive people to believe a falsehood.
    If you are saying that the only reason to omit a fact is a lie designed to deceive people, that is a mighty big claim there. I will ask you to back it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    The person relaying the information is not being truthful.
    This is not correct. One can omit information and still have the information communicated be perfectly true. For example I could say that I am typing on a keyboard right now and this claim will be true. I can also tell you what keys I am hitting in what sequence and with what WPM, the model keyboard I am using, and how it is attached to the computer and also be true. The first statement omits facts that the second statement contains, yet both statements are true.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    The basis of ignorance is not knowing the the truth
    Correct. Ignorance is the lack of knowledge of whatever subject matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    and since a lie that is devoid of facts it is ignorance.
    Also correct. However while lies cause ignorance, ignorance and lies are not the same thing.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 10-12-10 at 05:22 PM.

  6. #36
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    Re: What matters more historical facts or historical fiction passed off as facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    All of this is not relevent. Why did you take me on this wild goose chase?
    Very relevant since we're deciding on a definition. Declaring it not relevant is a wild goose chase.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    If you are saying that the only reason to omit a fact is a lie designed to deceive people, that is a mighty big claim there. I will ask you to back it up.
    I can give you some real examples like the US single handedly won WWI and WWIII. The omission of Lincoln's negative actions during his presidency. Both of those are designed to deceive people.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    This is not correct. One can omit information and still have the information communicated be perfectly true. For example I could say that I am typing on a keyboard right now and this claim will be true. I can also tell you what keys I am hitting in what sequence and with what WPM, the model keyboard I am using, and how it is attached to the computer and also be true. The first statement omits facts that the second statement contains, yet both statements are true.
    An omission of fact with intent is a lie which is a deception.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Correct. Ignorance is the lack of knowledge of whatever subject matter.

    Also correct. However while lies cause ignorance, ignorance and lies are not the same thing.
    I never stated that ignorance and lies are the same thing. I said 'a lie that is devoid of facts is ignorance.'

  7. #37
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    Re: What matters more historical facts or historical fiction passed off as facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    Very relevant since we're deciding on a definition. Declaring it not relevant is a wild goose chase.
    Ahh, thats your purpose (sorry I forgot that I mentioned that). In that case, my definition encompasses yours so in many ways we agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    I can give you some real examples like the US single handedly won WWI and WWIII. The omission of Lincoln's negative actions during his presidency. Both of those are designed to deceive people.
    That would only be two examples. If the only reason to omit a fact is designed to deceive people, than you are going to have to provide a reason why this happens in every case.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    An omission of fact with intent is a lie which is a deception.
    Omitting facts is not really lieing, but being inaccurate (depending on the relevence of the fact in question, if the fact does not really have any bearing on the discussion, you can omit it and still be accurate)

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    I never stated that ignorance and lies are the same thing. I said 'a lie that is devoid of facts is ignorance.'
    Given your reply to post 11, your were saying something else previously. Which one is it?
    Last edited by tacomancer; 10-12-10 at 06:30 PM.

  8. #38
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    Re: What matters more historical facts or historical fiction passed off as facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    I'm the opposite of what you want to do in regards to kids learning about history. I believe that by telling them the whole truth allows them to decide what lessons should be learned from history. It develops critical thinking and gives them the tools to question everything. Your method is currently used, up until the bad stuff, and it's not developing critical thinking and students questioning. A student that questions everything will employ tools to analyze statements made to them and root out what is true and what isn't. A good example would be a student hearing you say that America is a good country where freedom and liberty are treasured and questioning it. What makes America a good country? Does America truly treasure freedom and liberty when there are laws that control behavior and movements of the people? This is all critical thinking and questioning of the status quo. Nowdays students just accept the spoonfed history without question and never critically think about the things they are taught.

    That is unless I misunderstood the intent of your reply.
    Well, I consider the critical thinking skills to develop with time. I wouldn't take an elementary student and expect them to completely grapple with some situations in history and expect them to come to a carefully considered position...or, have a good response from parents (if I were a teacher). The problem that I have with so-called "critical thinking" is that it turns into merely being the "unpopular position" rather than encouraging careful thinking and humility.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 10-12-10 at 08:08 PM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  9. #39
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    Re: What matters more historical facts or historical fiction passed off as facts?

    Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it
    those who do not read historical fiction might merely be fans of romance novels



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