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Does Christopher Columbus deserve a holiday?

Does Christopher Columbus deserve a holiday?

  • Total voters
    49
Korimyr the Rat said:
If it weren't for greedy, racist sons of bitches, this country wouldn't exist. None of us Americans would exist.

Think about that next time you want to complain that we're glorifying bad men.
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Male bovine feces!
The Vikings discovered "America" and before then, the Mongolians(future American natives). This whole thing is silly and non-productive. Man should progress, not regress as the conservatives wish. If Lincoln was a bastard, should we then, be the same?
Columbus Day? NO, Jonas Salk Day? YES....or a G.W. Carver Day.....this makes more sense.
 
I just hit quick reply and then go with it. Then after submitting I go, "wait, I should add this". Then that can happen about several times more after that first instance.
 
Khayembii Communique said:
I think it's sort of ridiculous that anyone would want to honor Columbus, someone that really has little to do with the United States itself but has merely been integrated into the popular national consciousness and distorted to such an extent that the story children are told has almost nothing to do with what actually happened. The reality is that him and his crew killed millions of natives through outright killing, disease, seizure of resources, sabotage, etc... Him and his crew raped and murdered women as well. His journey opened up the continent for subsequent bloodbaths by the other conquistadors that led to the destruction of entire populations.

Yes, he is an "important historical figure". That doesn't mean he should be honored with a holiday. Christ.
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It's part of the indoctrination process.

America great, good, epic, etc.

Columbus found America, from that instance all our greatness was spawned, thus we must hail him with a day off work for many people.

Repeat first line.

Again.

:mrgreen::mrgreen:
 
Fiddytree said:
I just hit quick reply and then go with it. Then after submitting I go, "wait, I should add this". Then that can happen about several times more after that first instance.
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Chill man, ain't no big deal.
 
I'm mostly laughing at myself, because people respond to the unfinished post more often than the finished one. Oh well, I'm still searching in my head how to incorporate Arnold Toynbee in another short paper I have to write about historiography and the American public school classroom :p
 
Fiddytree said:
I'm mostly laughing at myself, because people respond to the unfinished post more often than the finished one. Oh well, I'm still searching in my head how to incorporate Arnold Toynbee in another short paper I have to write about historiography and the American public school classroom :p
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Are you finished with this post? I want to know when to respond:mrgreen:
 
Do it.....ya bastard! :D
 
Orion said:
I have always appreciated your realism Korimyr, but surely even you can appreciate that your views on the "nature" of human civilizations have been formed through an Amero-centric lens. All of the things you describe are the natures of your nation. Not all nations are warlike and there are those which live in relative peace. Your view presumes that the human consciousness does not evolve with time; that the way you see nationhood in modern day America is the way that all nations and cultures see it, past and present. We can draw conclusions about some basic human natures, sure, but that glosses over many efforts throughout the ages to change our ways. The fact that we often fall back on primitive impulses is clear, but only honing on that is precluding the fact that there are many people who want it to be better, and who want the world to be a better place. Every human evolution is slow and takes time, but the desire to change starts with a single idea, and the idea spreads.

The way the world is now, with its interconnectedness and complex interdependence -- it has NEVER been this way before in all of our known world history. The mentality of conquer or be conquered doesn't fully apply anymore. I know it does to many Americans, and that brings me back to my original point: the fact that you are American shapes your view on this. Your nation is warlike, it thrives on conflicts, and it creates many of them; the many "natures" you state are, in many ways, American apologism for state behaviour.

Christopher Columbus day may be a misguided tradition, but it's a carry-over from the era when most of the nations in power truly did think the way you are describing. It's not a eutopia now by any means but I don't see any point in maintaining a lie under the guise that it's the glue that holds nations together. It isn't. Nations remain in tact because people work out of mutual interest, and in case you haven't noticed, your nation has at least two potentially fatal problems right now, one of which is epidemic, non-sustainable selfishness.
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My, what a mouthful.

Are you trying to pretend that Canada has no blood on its hands? That no indians were displaced by its founding? That neither Canada nor any part of it has ever fought any questionable wars?

That oh-so-enlightened Europe wasn't carved out in blood? That Europe didn't give birth to terms like The Hundred Years' War, The Inquisition, World War One and Two, and so on?

All those nations were founded in spilled blood. It's no good trying to single out America.

Yes, we are warlike, if you define "warlike" as "willing to wage war when it seems needful to do so." And it is a damn good thing for the entire world that we are, or Europe would be called the Third Reich and Imperial Japan would rule Asia.


Frankly what you consider "advanced" in nations, I consider "Decadence" and being too weak willed to take action when action is called for.
 
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Fine, be that way. :D

Anyways, can you tell that I really love historiography?
 
Goshin said:
Ah...

...so it is okay to damn Columbus to hell for being a man of his time and culture...


....but Abe Lincoln gets a pass because, though he was a horrible racist by modern standards, for his time and culture he was maybe less racist than most.

Sure. Makes perfect sense.
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Columbus was far worse than his time and culture. Even the Spanish monarchy got fed up with how unbelievably brutal he was toward the Native Americans.
 
Kandahar said:
Columbus was far worse than his time and culture. Even the Spanish monarchy got fed up with how unbelievably brutal he was toward the Native Americans.
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Are there any White people you approve of ???
 
mike2810 said:
It is interesting when some people apply today’s social standards/values to people in the past. IMO to judge someone you must look at what the social standards were for that time.
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Hell, I don't even apply today's standards to people living today. There's something sick and broken in the morals we're expected to value today.

Goshin said:
It isn't so different from what I'm talking about, which is namely not going out of your way to deconstruct the entire American mythos to the point that nobody feels proud to be an American.
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Hell, that's the point of it. We're supposed to feel guilty about being American so that we sit back and accept the aliens dismantling our country piece by piece and trading it off to the UN and the WTO. They tell us that we don't deserve to be great so that we'll stop doing whatever it takes to stay great. They want to destroy all vestiges of nationalism so that they can dismantle the concept of the nation-state and unite the world under one banner of love, lights, and lollipops.

Orion said:
I have always appreciated your realism Korimyr, but surely even you can appreciate that your views on the "nature" of human civilizations have been formed through an Amero-centric lens.
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Of course. How could it be otherwise?

Orion said:
All of the things you describe are the natures of your nation. Not all nations are warlike and there are those which live in relative peace.
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Be shocked to hear you name one. All the ones that are known for being peaceful this century were colonial powers last century. The last veterans of World War II are still drawing breath. Hell, even Gandhi's India is a nuclear power. Even Canada, diplomatic mild-mannered Canada, usually jumps at the chance to get a piece of our action.

Orion said:
Your view presumes that the human consciousness does not evolve with time; that the way you see nationhood in modern day America is the way that all nations and cultures see it, past and present. We can draw conclusions about some basic human natures, sure, but that glosses over many efforts throughout the ages to change our ways.
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I'm not glossing over the efforts that we have made to change human nature. If anything, I am calling attention to them because I think our failures are instructional. We haven't stopped exploiting aliens for every drop of sweat we can wring out of them, and we haven't stopped discarding them thoughtlessly when we're done with them. We just stopped doing it in our own backyard, where we would have to watch. Our treatment of aliens hasn't improved any more than our treatment of livestock; we've just removed ourself far enough from the process that we've forgotten where our meat comes from. This newfound "social conscience" of ours is a privileged delusion at best, and blatant self-serving hypocrisy at worst.

Orion said:
Christopher Columbus day may be a misguided tradition, but it's a carry-over from the era when most of the nations in power truly did think the way you are describing. It's not a eutopia now by any means but I don't see any point in maintaining a lie under the guise that it's the glue that holds nations together. It isn't. Nations remain in tact because people work out of mutual interest, and in case you haven't noticed, your nation has at least two potentially fatal problems right now, one of which is epidemic, non-sustainable selfishness.
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I'm not interested in the lie. I'm perfectly happy celebrating Colombus Day on the basis of slavery and genocide. It's all the poor bleeding hearts that have to lie to themselves to get out of bed in the morning.
 
I like getting holidays off... I think we need to celebrate more things in America that has nothing to do with America like Columbus Day. I think we should give Leif Ericson a holiday too. He was a viking and vikings are cool.

He may have actually discovered America, so that is definitely a reason to celebrate him.. And we should celebrate Columbus Day and Ericson Day back to back, so that is a four day weekend!!!
:2dancing::2party:


And Albert Einstein should get a holiday for being so smart... He needs to be emulated. There are too many stupid people in America today.
 
Khayembii Communique said:
The reality is that him and his crew killed millions of natives through outright killing, disease, seizure of resources, sabotage, etc... Him and his crew raped and murdered women as well. His journey opened up the continent for subsequent bloodbaths by the other conquistadors that led to the destruction of entire populations.
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Populations that lived on the land we live on now. The very land from which you are condemning his actions. Do you want to give it back? Or do you think that saying you're sorry justifies the fact that you're still occupying their stolen property?
 
Populations that lived on the land we live on now. The very land from which you are condemning his actions. Do you want to give it back? Or do you think that saying you're sorry justifies the fact that you're still occupying their stolen property?
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I was putting Columbus in his proper place in history along with the rest of the conquistadors in opposition to the fairy tale children hear in grade school and stated that he shouldn't be honored. You were the one that took that and leapt to these ridiculous conclusions.
 
Korimyr the Rat said:
Populations that lived on the land we live on now. The very land from which you are condemning his actions. Do you want to give it back? Or do you think that saying you're sorry justifies the fact that you're still occupying their stolen property?
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We gave "American Indians" back some of their lands.

Or something like that.

Personally, I think that was ill-advised, in some ways.

Not really clear on the whole thing, haven’t made a study of it to any great detail.
 
Korimyr the Rat said:
Populations that lived on the land we live on now. The very land from which you are condemning his actions. Do you want to give it back? Or do you think that saying you're sorry justifies the fact that you're still occupying their stolen property?
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Isn't there a middle ground between giving the land back to the descendants of the people who were here 500 years ago, and honoring a genocidal tyrant with a holiday?
 
Khayembii Communique said:
I was putting Columbus in his proper place in history along with the rest of the conquistadors in opposition to the fairy tale children hear in grade school and stated that he shouldn't be honored. You were the one that took that and leapt to these ridiculous conclusions.
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And what you're forgetting is that Colombus and all those other conquistadors made your life possible. You have no moral standing to condemn them when you are still profiting from their actions.
 
And what you're forgetting is that Colombus and all those other conquistadors made your life possible. You have no moral standing to condemn them when you are still profiting from their actions.
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Perhaps we should honor all genocidal tyrants with holidays, then. After all, if it weren't for them, where would we be?
 
who knows-but I note it has become quite fashionable for those in the country who dislike America or are ambivalent about her undeniable greatness to bash Columbus as some sort of surrogate for the nation.
 
Lets see here, he hopped in a wooden boat, sailed across a big bit of water, and back, a couple of times, I'd say that deserves a holiday.
 
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