View Poll Results: Does Christopher Columbus deserve a holiday?

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    46 42.99%
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Thread: Does Christopher Columbus deserve a holiday?

  1. #51
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    Re: Does Christopher Columbus deserve a holiday?

    I completely agree, and I don't know why I didn't include this-I usually do. I'm usually called some evil nationalist, though I support the label of strictly nationalism. I have no problems with the label

    I suppose I was listening to the children above us running around screaming..at the same time I was thinking about responding to an article.... I like kids. The roommate, on the hand, not so much :P
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 10-11-10 at 08:20 PM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  2. #52
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    Re: Does Christopher Columbus deserve a holiday?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Exactly right. I would go further and say that our "historical mythology" is IMPORTANT to us, that it serves an actual purpose: it helps identify us as a people, as a culture and a nation.

    Strip away all the myths, and you're stripping away a lot of the glue that binds us together. Reveal, and teach the children, all the faults and failings of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Abe Lincoln, Chris Columbus, Ben Franklin, etc etc... and you deflate a lot of the positive mythos surrounding their nation and their history and culture. The ramifications of doing this are not to be underestimated. A people who feel no pride in their nation or their culture are a people without an anchor, easily blown away by the tides of history.

    Yes, I realize I'm arguing in favor of puttying over some of the facts about historical figures for the sake of nationalism. It's the same reason why I say that throwing all traditions overboard simply because they're old is another way of making a society come unglued and disunified. People are held together by a certain quantity of shared values and shared mythos. If you don't believe me, ask a Marine Corps DI why they teach Marines about Chesty Puller, the halls of Montezuma and the Shores of Tripoli.

    Without some degree of shared values and shared mythos, my vested intrest in caring what happens to some guy in NYC or LA becomes much more abstract and much less important to me.
    Translation:

    Promote Ignorance. America F**K YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  3. #53
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    Re: Does Christopher Columbus deserve a holiday?

    Translation: Sometimes what is best is not the entire truth, or overlooking some aspects of it.

    Believe me, the more you research people, the more you find their warts, and the more unsettling it can become-especially with enough time. You could make the choice to become horrified by it, or you could make the choice to be horrified by it and prop something else up, or you can figure out your own way to come to terms with it. I know many professors who throw out the possibility of finding a new set of cultural heroes, or what to look for. Nevertheless, they wouldn't necessarily demand that such and such be the set criteria.

    History is a tough subject to deal with Hatuey. It is not so simple.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 10-11-10 at 08:29 PM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Does Christopher Columbus deserve a holiday?

    Strip away all the myths, and you're stripping away a lot of the glue that binds us together.
    If the "glue that binds us together" is lies, perhaps we have no business being "bound" in the first place.

  5. #55
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    Re: Does Christopher Columbus deserve a holiday?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    But just about every industrialized nation was founded on the blood and sweat of either slaves, indigenous peoples, or peasants, so where could I go that would be different.
    That's really my point. And it just isn't limited to industrialized nations, either. Every nation that exists has blood on its hands; every person living owes their entire existence to the blood on their ancestors' hands. That goes beyond our merest existence, as well. Every advantage, every luxury, that we enjoy came about because somebody else suffered and died for it. That's what society is, that's how it works, and that's what happens, time and time again, throughout all of human history.

    You hate Christopher Colombus, you might as well hate everyone. Every dollar that's ever passed through someone else's pockets has been blood money.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    That doesn't mean we should glorify the more reprehensible aspects of our heritage, though. Acknowledge, yes. Make amends for, possibly.
    Why on Earth would we ever do that? And how would we even begin? Whole nations are dead. The only reason there's anyone left to make amends to is that we didn't kill them hard enough in the first place.

  6. #56
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    Re: Does Christopher Columbus deserve a holiday?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    If the "glue that binds us together" is lies, perhaps we have no business being "bound" in the first place.
    Except you have to wonder if the glue that binds us together is mostly good as well as ...mostly true. For Americans, I believe the mythology serves us well.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Does Christopher Columbus deserve a holiday?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    That's really my point. And it just isn't limited to industrialized nations, either. Every nation that exists has blood on its hands; every person living owes their entire existence to the blood on their ancestors' hands. That goes beyond our merest existence, as well. Every advantage, every luxury, that we enjoy came about because somebody else suffered and died for it. That's what society is, that's how it works, and that's what happens, time and time again, throughout all of human history.

    You hate Christopher Colombus, you might as well hate everyone. Every dollar that's ever passed through someone else's pockets has been blood money.



    Why on Earth would we ever do that? And how would we even begin? Whole nations are dead. The only reason there's anyone left to make amends to is that we didn't kill them hard enough in the first place.

    I guess what I find offensive is that we try to sentimentalize this horror, turn it into an amusing cartoon, a pretty fairy tale.

    If most of us can't stand to own it, can't we just ignore it?

  8. #58
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    Re: Does Christopher Columbus deserve a holiday?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Translation: Sometimes what is best is not the entire truth, or overlooking some aspects of it.
    Really? In which cases? Maybe law cases? Maybe you'd prefer to never known who is responsible for murders. Your wife cheating on you? Maybe you'd prefer living in a house thinking that your wife is faithful to you. Your kid being raped? Maybe you'd prefer not knowing whether they have or haven't? Tell us when it's 'best' to not know the entire truth?

    Believe me, the more you research people, the more you find their warts. You could make the choice to become horrified by it, or you could make the choice to be horrified by it and prop something else up, or you can figure out your own way to come to terms with it. I know many professors who throw out the possibility of finding a new set of cultural heroes, or what to look for. Nevertheless, they wouldn't necessarily demand that such and such be the set criteria.
    None of that makes any sense. You talk about not wanting to know all the details about a person and then cite your professors. Ask one of those professors that you know which historical facts they would 'overlook' or better yet ignore when doing their research. Now ask them how long it would take before they got discredited by their peers for 'overlooking' such facts? No. It's always better to find out the truth.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  9. #59
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    Re: Does Christopher Columbus deserve a holiday?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    That's really my point. And it just isn't limited to industrialized nations, either. Every nation that exists has blood on its hands; every person living owes their entire existence to the blood on their ancestors' hands. That goes beyond our merest existence, as well. Every advantage, every luxury, that we enjoy came about because somebody else suffered and died for it. That's what society is, that's how it works, and that's what happens, time and time again, throughout all of human history.

    You hate Christopher Colombus, you might as well hate everyone. Every dollar that's ever passed through someone else's pockets has been blood money.



    Why on Earth would we ever do that? And how would we even begin? Whole nations are dead. The only reason there's anyone left to make amends to is that we didn't kill them hard enough in the first place.

    Short versions: nations are not founded by nice people who want what's best for everyone. Nations are founded by people willing to take risks and spill blood to carve a place for themselves and whoever they consider "their people" out of a world that is ruled by the aggressive use of force. Naturally, that means somebody is going to view those Founders as being rotten sumbeeches.


    Whoever got the shaft, probably. In our case, native American Indians, the Brits of that day, the French, and the Spanish & Mexicans. (1. near-genocide, 2. revolted and took their colony away, 3. took land from, 4. took land from.)
    Last edited by Goshin; 10-11-10 at 08:38 PM.

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    Re: Does Christopher Columbus deserve a holiday?

    Your wife cheating on you? Maybe you'd prefer living in a house thinking that your wife is faithful to you. Your kid being raped? Maybe you'd prefer not knowing whether they have or haven't?
    Actually, a lot of people would probably agree with the above statements; if not openly, then secretly. They'd prefer not to know the truth about either of these things.

    A lot of people are cowards, to whom maintaining the status quo is far more important than knowing the truth.
    Uncomfortable truths are seldom welcome in comfortable lives.

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