View Poll Results: Should min wage be removed?

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    28 31.46%
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Thread: Should min wage be removed?

  1. #241
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    Re: Should min wage be removed?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot
    Explain to us why for 124 years, the period between 1789 to 1913, that wages and prices were stable? People were able to live just fine and move up from a low social status to a higher one.
    They were?

    Slavery? Hello?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    It's cheaper for the company to go overseas to a country that the people have smaller wages then it is to have the jobs perform domestically. Why is this?
    Why do you pretend you don't know? Other countries have fewer worker rights. You can pay them next to nothing, give them no breaks, have foreign managers watch the facilities (who you also pay less), have working hours well beyond 40 hours a week but not have to pay overtime, you don't have to maintain safe working conditions, pay insurance on workers, etc. The input costs are far lower because of this.

    The fact that your country has rights is why companies leave. That's globalization for you. America started it and is now suffering the consequences. The solution is not to make your worker rights en par to China.

  2. #242
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    Re: Should min wage be removed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    They were?
    JP Morgan, Andrew Carnagie, etc... started with nothing and became millionaires.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    Slavery? Hello?
    I didn't realize that slavery was abolished in 1913... I also didn't realize that slavery was legal and practiced in every single state in the United States...


    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    Why do you pretend you don't know? Other countries have fewer worker rights. You can pay them next to nothing, give them no breaks, have foreign managers watch the facilities (who you also pay less), have working hours well beyond 40 hours a week but not have to pay overtime, you don't have to maintain safe working conditions, pay insurance on workers, etc. The input costs are far lower because of this.
    Care to deliniate exactly what rights a worker has? The only right, which I know of, that a worker has is the right to contract to use their labor in the service to another for compensation. Also, you're performing an invalid comparison since the Constitution of the United States and it's fundamentals only apply to the United States. It does not apply to other countries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    The fact that your country has rights is why companies leave. That's globalization for you. America started it and is now suffering the consequences. The solution is not to make your worker rights en par to China.
    Globalization began way before the 20th century and did not originate with the US. It started much earlier in the 17th centuries under the European powers through colonialism. US companies are continuing what the Europeans started. As for worker rights, see my previous question.
    Last edited by The_Patriot; 10-09-10 at 11:08 AM.

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    Re: Should min wage be removed?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    JP Morgan, Andrew Carnagie, etc... started with nothing and became millionaires.
    The same could be said of drug dealers, pimps, and gang bangers.

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    Re: Should min wage be removed?

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    The same could be said of drug dealers, pimps, and gang bangers.
    Yes, because we all know that the captain's of industry I listed broke laws to make their money... oh wait they didn't. Invalid comparison fallacy on your part.

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    Re: Should min wage be removed?

    When man learns to RESPECT his fellow man.....then the minimum wage, and many other things can be lifted.
    But this is yet to happen.
    It was not that long ago when slavery prevailed.
    Is this what the tea bagging conservatives want?
    Me?
    I just want honesty....and truthfulness.

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    Re: Should min wage be removed?

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    The same could be said of drug dealers, pimps, and gang bangers.
    But, these "people" take from society and return less than nothing.
    And when man improves, these scum will be out of business.

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    Re: Should min wage be removed?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    JP Morgan, Andrew Carnagie, etc... started with nothing and became millionaires.



    I didn't realize that slavery was abolished in 1913... I also didn't realize that slavery was legal and practiced in every single state in the United States...




    Care to deliniate exactly what rights a worker has? The only right, which I know of, that a worker has is the right to contract to use their labor in the service to another for compensation. Also, you're performing an invalid comparison since the Constitution of the United States and it's fundamentals only apply to the United States. It does not apply to other countries.



    Globalization began way before the 20th century and did not originate with the US. It started much earlier in the 17th centuries under the European powers through colonialism. US companies are continuing what the Europeans started. As for worker rights, see my previous question.
    Man's problem, allowing an old paper,(the Constitution, a Bible, a Koran) to dictate his life.
    What whas he written recently?
    Slavery is such a relative term...
    If workers knew that they "had no rights", then what kind of worker could a man expect??
    Last edited by earthworm; 10-09-10 at 01:06 PM. Reason: addendum

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    Re: Should min wage be removed?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    JP Morgan, Andrew Carnagie, etc... started with nothing and became millionaires.
    I'm not saying that it isn't possible, but that it is rare. You can't take a few examples and try to make it seem easy. It's not, and in fact the majority never reach that level even after a lifetime of work.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    I didn't realize that slavery was abolished in 1913... I also didn't realize that slavery was legal and practiced in every single state in the United States...
    I don't understand this rebuttal. You said that people were just fine moving through the social ladder. I mentioned slavery as one example of how that was not possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    Care to deliniate exactly what rights a worker has? The only right, which I know of, that a worker has is the right to contract to use their labor in the service to another for compensation.
    It doesn't matter what the contract says, it can't violate labour laws. These include:

    The right to a break after a certain number of working hours; the right to not be put into dangerous situations without consent, training, and proper equipment/procedures; the right to be paid for overtime if you exceed a certain number of work hours per week; freedom from discrimination in the hiring process; freedom of association (i.e. joining unions that are independent from government or employer influence); the right to equal pay for equal work, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    Also, you're performing an invalid comparison since the Constitution of the United States and it's fundamentals only apply to the United States. It does not apply to other countries.
    This is a complete and utter non-sequitur. I think maybe you didn't understand my original point. People are saying that in the absence of jobs, minimum wage should be eliminated in order to create more employment. I am saying that there is less employment because companies are moving their bottom line to foreign countries where there are fewer labour laws. One solution is not to decrease domestic compensation (i.e. remove minimum wage), but to negatively or positively incentivize companies to keep their businesses domestic.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    Globalization began way before the 20th century and did not originate with the US. It started much earlier in the 17th centuries under the European powers through colonialism. US companies are continuing what the Europeans started. As for worker rights, see my previous question.
    European imperialism and colonization was a function of the mercantilist era, and mostly related to the British empire. Mercantilism was about increasing the wealth of a nation, and not private business interests. The U.S. was the creator of the modern corporation and multinational business, and it used to Cold War to propel its style of capitalism to all corners of the globe. The U.S. did not use the mercantilist framework that was already there; rather, the British Empire collapsed and was then completely replaced by private U.S. business.

    It's the reason why the U.S. dollar became the trade standard everywhere. Businesses currently do not pay taxes to the American government on foreign-generated profits. One could maybe argue that it was American-style imperialism which spread the U.S. dollar along with its business practices, but it still wouldn't be en par to the mercantilist values of the centuries prior.

  9. #249
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    Re: Should min wage be removed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    I'm not saying that it isn't possible, but that it is rare. You can't take a few examples and try to make it seem easy. It's not, and in fact the majority never reach that level even after a lifetime of work.
    It happened quite regularly and history is replete with examples.


    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    I don't understand this rebuttal. You said that people were just fine moving through the social ladder. I mentioned slavery as one example of how that was not possible.
    You brought up slavery in response to my question about why things were stable price and wages for that time period. You don't know much about slavery do you? Slaves could be emancipated by the courts if they proved that they could function in society without being a drain on it. The reverse was also true where a poor person that couldn't function in society could petition the court to be placed as a slave. It was normal for slaves to work a set shift then once that shift had ended they were allowed to pursue a second job that paid them money. Slave owners, on the other hand, had to take provide cradle to the grave welfare for their slaves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    It doesn't matter what the contract says, it can't violate labour laws. These include:

    The right to a break after a certain number of working hours; the right to not be put into dangerous situations without consent, training, and proper equipment/procedures; the right to be paid for overtime if you exceed a certain number of work hours per week; freedom from discrimination in the hiring process; freedom of association (i.e. joining unions that are independent from government or employer influence); the right to equal pay for equal work, etc.
    Actually, you can sign a contract that removes your rights. You do it all the time quite frequently. Also, those aren't rights per say, but terms of your employment that the government made standard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    This is a complete and utter non-sequitur. I think maybe you didn't understand my original point. People are saying that in the absence of jobs, minimum wage should be eliminated in order to create more employment. I am saying that there is less employment because companies are moving their bottom line to foreign countries where there are fewer labour laws. One solution is not to decrease domestic compensation (i.e. remove minimum wage), but to negatively or positively incentivize companies to keep their businesses domestic.
    You brought up other countries treatment of their workers. That's a non-sequitur to my original point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    European imperialism and colonization was a function of the mercantilist era, and mostly related to the British empire. Mercantilism was about increasing the wealth of a nation, and not private business interests. The U.S. was the creator of the modern corporation and multinational business, and it used to Cold War to propel its style of capitalism to all corners of the globe. The U.S. did not use the mercantilist framework that was already there; rather, the British Empire collapsed and was then completely replaced by private U.S. business.

    It's the reason why the U.S. dollar became the trade standard everywhere. Businesses currently do not pay taxes to the American government on foreign-generated profits. One could maybe argue that it was American-style imperialism which spread the U.S. dollar along with its business practices, but it still wouldn't be en par to the mercantilist values of the centuries prior.
    Actually, the US did use mercantilism, but mercantilism in itself is a global endevour.

  10. #250
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    Re: Should min wage be removed?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    I said no because minimum wage puts a false bottom on goods and services, which prevents them from being cheaper. Also, the minimum wage doesn't help the people it is supposed to, the unskilled worker, because the prices of goods and services rises to the new floor on prices. The only people that the minimum wages help are union workers at the top of their pay scale. The only way that they will get a raise is when minimum wage increases. In my 41 years of life I have seen minimum wage go up three times and each time the cost of goods and services went up. The cost was roughly the same percentage of what it cost to purchase basic goods and services under the new minimum wage as it was under the old minimum wage. For example, back when minimum wage was $3.15 an hour a hamburger at McDonalds was 59 cents. With minimum wage at $7.50 an hour that same burger is now $1.09. Did minimum wage actually help the unskilled worker in order to afford a basic food product? No, because it costs roughly the same percentage as it did under the old minimum wage.
    Actually in the first model, at 3.15 minimum wage, the hamburger would be 11 minutes of work or 18% of his hourly wage, or roughly 5.3 hamburgers an hour.

    In the second model the hamburger is worth 8.7 minutes of work or 15% of his hourly wage or 6.8 hamburgers an hour.

    So in relative terms even though the price of the hamburger went up, he's actually earning more purchasing power in terms of dollars to hamburgers.

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