View Poll Results: Which is a better quality: Forgiveness or Loyalty?

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  • Forgiveness

    7 16.67%
  • Loyalty

    21 50.00%
  • Depends on the situation

    14 33.33%
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Thread: Since when is forgiveness a better quality than loyalty?

  1. #11
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    Re: Since when is forgiveness a better quality than loyalty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Helvidius View Post
    I was watching Mad Men and this quote came up: "Since when is forgiveness a better quality than loyalty?"

    I'm not necessarily looking for answers based on the context of the show. In general what do you think?
    I'm not sure "forgiveness" is a "quality" at all.
    I mean, I don't think "loyalty" and "forgiveness" are two equivalent terms.
    One's a quality, one's an act. Beyond that, they're sort of similar.

    You might as well ask, "Which is a better quality, courage or sky-diving?"

  2. #12
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    Re: Since when is forgiveness a better quality than loyalty?

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Please show me where Jesus ever used the word 'loyalty' or any connotation. Faith is different than loyalty.
    I didn't mean loyal to Jesus, I meant loyal to the ideals of his teachings.

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    My point is that loyalty can be impure, corrupting the soul. People were loyal to Hitler. Forgiveness is something higher, righteous.
    I disagree with the last. I think "Forgiveness" can also be impure. Dunno about the "corrupting the soul" part.

    It depends on WHY you are forgiving someone something.

    Unless you are defining "Forgiveness" specifically as the act of forgiving someone, without any expectation of a reciprocal act.

    I donít think itís that simple.
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    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

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    Re: Since when is forgiveness a better quality than loyalty?

    It depends on the situation, but on the whole I'm not sure I see a difference. One quality in loyal friends is that they forgive you when you mess up.

    If you have to choose between loyalty and forgiveness, does that mean that forgiveness is disloyal? I don't understand. Or are we talking about forgiving people who are enemies of mutual friends? (i.e. you and I are friends, and someone has hurt us both.) If that's the case, then forgiving someone is about individuals moving on.

  4. #14
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    Re: Since when is forgiveness a better quality than loyalty?

    I don't really see them as conflicting ideals. Forgiveness is more about personal acceptance than a specific action. A police officer could forgive someone and then imprison or kill them because of loyalty to the law. I can't really think of situation where you couldn't personally forgive someone while still staying loyal to a person or cause.

  5. #15
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    Re: Since when is forgiveness a better quality than loyalty?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
    I'm not sure "forgiveness" is a "quality" at all.
    I mean, I don't think "loyalty" and "forgiveness" are two equivalent terms.
    One's a quality, one's an act. Beyond that, they're sort of similar.

    You might as well ask, "Which is a better quality, courage or sky-diving?"
    I think the ability to forgive someone is a quality. Just like staying loyal to a friend can be a quality or being kind to people is a quality. I don't find your sky diving comparison valid.
    Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

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    Re: Since when is forgiveness a better quality than loyalty?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    I didn't mean loyal to Jesus, I meant loyal to the ideals of his teachings.
    That's a loose use of the term loyal. I know we sometimes say 'loyal followers', and you can add 'of his tenets', but it's IMO a slight misuse of the term and not representative of what Jesus wanted. He was not asking for a sense of duty or wanting us to act out of obligation. As christianity became formalized in practice, devotion became part of it. But Jesus died for us, because we were imperfect, then his message was more about striving toward the ideals of faith, hope, and charity.

    I disagree with the last. I think "Forgiveness" can also be impure.
    Give me an example.


    It depends on WHY you are forgiving someone something.
    The more horrible the crime against you, the more profound the forgiveness.

    Unless you are defining "Forgiveness" specifically as the act of forgiving someone, without any expectation of a reciprocal act.
    Forgiveness = the process of concluding resentment, indignation or anger as a result of a perceived offense.

    I donít think itís that simple.
    If you could give some concrete negative examples of forgiveness... I'm not saying you're wrong or anything, but the way I define forgiveness, as long as its genuine, then its always positive.

  7. #17
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    Re: Since when is forgiveness a better quality than loyalty?

    Loyalty is best and how you know someone is really with you.

    Forgiveness? I would probably never have to forgive someone that is really with me in a loyal way and if I have to? Well they may need to go for a swim.
    ~Following My Own Flow~

  8. #18
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    Re: Since when is forgiveness a better quality than loyalty?

    Forgiveness. For it provides for one to be loyal if you possess a forgiving heart.

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    Re: Since when is forgiveness a better quality than loyalty?

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    That's a loose use of the term loyal. I know we sometimes say 'loyal followers', and you can add 'of his tenets', but it's IMO a slight misuse of the term and not representative of what Jesus wanted. He was not asking for a sense of duty or wanting us to act out of obligation. As Christianity became formalized in practice, devotion became part of it. But Jesus died for us, because we were imperfect, then his message was more about striving toward the ideals of faith, hope, and charity.
    Perhaps our definitions of “loyal” differ somewhat.


    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Give me an example.
    I thought I did, earlier, with the “Don is more likely to forgive those loyal to him than those not” idea.

    Perhaps our definitions of “forgiveness” differ.


    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    The more horrible the crime against you, the more profound the forgiveness.
    Most likely.


    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Forgiveness = the process of concluding resentment, indignation or anger as a result of a perceived offense.
    Then perhaps my previous example of “impure forgiveness” is incorrect.


    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    If you could give some concrete negative examples of forgiveness... I'm not saying you're wrong or anything, but the way I define forgiveness, as long as its genuine, then its always positive.
    I think we simply define forgiveness differently.

    In your mind, is forgiveness genuine if someone “forgives” another (as in, perhaps, forgiving someone a debt) with the expectation that they will receive something in return at a future date?

    That might be pushing it, but that’s what came to mind when I thought of it.
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  10. #20
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    Re: Since when is forgiveness a better quality than loyalty?

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    My point is that loyalty can be impure, corrupting the soul. People were loyal to Hitler. Forgiveness is something higher, righteous.
    I know we never agree, but I think this is very profound and spot on. I agree with you on this one
    When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. -Socrates
    Tired of elections being between the lesser of two evils.

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