View Poll Results: Worst American President

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  • Barack Obama

    141 62.11%
  • George W. Bush

    30 13.22%
  • Franklin Pierce

    3 1.32%
  • Herbert Hoover

    6 2.64%
  • Warren G. Harding

    6 2.64%
  • FDR

    8 3.52%
  • James Buchanan

    9 3.96%
  • Ulysses S. Grant

    2 0.88%
  • Other

    22 9.69%
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Thread: Worst American Presidents

  1. #301
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    Re: Worst American Presidents

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyNinja View Post
    I'm really intrigued to see how you will justify the terms agreed upon in the Treaty of Ghent as a "British victory". The Brits withdrew, giving up all territorial gains made during the war and the war ended with an American victory at Plattsburg. The British offensive also did NOTHING to stem the impending tide of Manifest Destiny and the resulting Westward expansion of the American culture.
    I'm really intrigued to see how you will justify the loss of three forts and a huge chunk of north Mid-West territory (part of which remain Canadian today, the rest of which weren't returned until decades later) as "giving up all territorial gains". Furthermore, I'm interested to see your response to the British impressment policy's continued practice, and the total forced destruction of the American embargo.

  2. #302
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    Re: Worst American Presidents

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Marteau View Post
    I'm really intrigued to see how you will justify the loss of three forts and a huge chunk of north Mid-West territory (part of which remain Canadian today, the rest of which weren't returned until decades later) as "giving up all territorial gains". Furthermore, I'm interested to see your response to the British impressment policy's continued practice, and the total forced destruction of the American embargo.
    Not to go off thread topic, But being someone who grew up around Fort McHenry I got to ask. What three forts and a huge chunk of north Mid-West territory are you talking about?

  3. #303
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    Re: Worst American Presidents

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Marteau View Post
    I'm really intrigued to see how you will justify the loss of three forts and a huge chunk of north Mid-West territory (part of which remain Canadian today, the rest of which weren't returned until decades later) as "giving up all territorial gains". Furthermore, I'm interested to see your response to the British impressment policy's continued practice, and the total forced destruction of the American embargo.
    Yes, yes, I know and Washington was burned as well, yada, yada. The fact remains, Britain was unable to hold on to any viable territorial gains that it had "won" during the 1812-1814 offensives. The "mid-western lands" you mention were lands where virtually NO American citizens lived anyway, if my memory serves me correctly, it was actually named some sort of Native-American sanctuary by the Brits.

    As for impressment and the embargo, well it is my understanding that impressment of US sailors ended in 1814 after Britain and France "settled" their differences and became allies. The long-term effects of the embargo were relatively insignificant anyway. I have to say the Brits WERE awarded fishing rights in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, however.............so I suppose you can claim at least some small victory.
    Last edited by FluffyNinja; 10-14-10 at 03:55 AM.
    "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." - Dr. Carl Sagan

  4. #304
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    Re: Worst American Presidents

    What a short memory we collectively possess. So many have forgotten what Bush did to this country in war and the economy. It took 8 years for him to do this to our country. It will probably take more than 2 years to get us out of it but he has a good start. On another brief topic, Bush was undoubtly the most mentally challenged leader in history.

    Just an opinion. . . . .

  5. #305
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    Re: Worst American Presidents

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyNinja View Post
    Yes, yes, I know and Washington was burned as well, yada, yada. The fact remains, Britain was unable to hold on to any viable territorial gains that it had "won" during the 1812-1814 offensives. The "mid-western lands" you mention were lands where virtually NO American citizens lived anyway, if my memory serves me correctly, it was actually named some sort of Native-American sanctuary by the Brits.

    As for impressment and the embargo, well it is my understanding that impressment of US sailors ended in 1814 after Britain and France "settled" their differences and became allies. The long-term effects of the embargo were relatively insignificant anyway. I have to say the Brits WERE awarded fishing rights in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, however.............so I suppose you can claim at least some small victory.

    To both Fluffyninja and Sidgaf -- make no mistake, please -- I'm not claiming that the war was a stunning victory or shattering defeat for either side. It was, as most history books say, a fairly unimportant war in general -- it did nothing to prevent either the States from starting their Manifest Destiny policy a few years later, nor the expansion of the British Empire to dominance in the world and the defeat of Napoleonic France. I admit I'm simply arguing minor details, and on a whole, the war largely had little significant impact for either side. However, I do also believe that it's important to note the trivialities and details of history, as well as the grandiose themes, and with regards to the small-scale stuff, I would find it hard to argue that the British Empire did not win that war. In regards to territories claimed by the British empire -- significant swafts of land in present-day Minnesota, Michigan and Wisconsin were under a treaty that provided for the housing of Canadian/British troops, and several forts (the only one of which I can name by heart is Fort Mackinac), as well as the permanent disbandment of Fort Dearborn -- which was retrospectively actually beneficial to the Americans, as the location would later become Chicago. However, the most important reason the war must constitute a British victory is that the war was an offensive action by the Americans, who tried to seize all or part of Canada -- resulting in repeated repulsions, and territorial losses by the Americans by the end of the war. It's a fallacy of wars like this one to believe that returning to (nearly) status-quo ante-bellum concludes a tie -- because one side is always the aggressor, and the other, the defender. When an aggressor attempts to seize a castle, say, and the defenders successfully repel the attack, what is the outcome of the battle? It is not a draw, but rather a victory for the defense. American goals at the beginning of the war were to seize what they could of Canada (American expansionism), and end the impressment of American sailors by the Royal Navy. While impressment largely became a moot subject by the end of the war, as the Brits had defeated Napoleon and needed no more sailors, the United States absolutely failed in its main pre-war goal of annexing Canada. Thus, the war must constitute an American defeat, even though territorial gains were largely negligible.

    In short, land is not the only determining factor in the outcome of a war.

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