View Poll Results: Was Grover Cleveland overall successful as president?

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Thread: Was Grover Cleveland generally successful as president or not?

  1. #11
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    Re: Was Grover Cleveland generally successful as president or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    In that case, a beggar in the street who steals food from the local convenient store should not be punished. Theft, no matter the perpetrator, is unethical. And redistributing wealth through the force of the government is theft.

    I don't believe those who meet misfortunes should be "screwed" anymore than you believe we should eat the rich. My idea is that local, private charities and developers should rebuild damaged cities and help those who have fallen victim to unpreventable disasters. The greatest organizations that do this are not run by government. And, who do you think rebuilt San Francisco after the 1906 Quake?
    Several highly-trained circuses of fleas.
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    Re: Was Grover Cleveland generally successful as president or not?

    Charity has a place, but it's seriously flawed, especially when it's most needed: hard economic times. Many great charities work better during strong economic periods and fail during economic recessions and collapses, when government supports are most needed. We saw this in during most of the Thirites, as well as in the 19th century 1893. Donations fell when they were most needed.

    Moreover, charity is random and sporatic, and charitable agencies lack the scope and infrastructure of government, which automatically makes them inferior for large scale, long-term issues.

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    Re: Was Grover Cleveland generally successful as president or not?

    Personally, regarding the whole shtick of "taxes = theft", "wealth redistribution = theft/bad", vs. "wealth redistribution = good", "taxes = need more".

    I probably fall somewhere in between the two extremes, with a lean towards the side of "taxes = bad".

    I think our current setup is far too large, demands far too much in taxes, and spends even more than it demands in taxes.

    I also think too small a government and/or no government welfare/whatever is a bad idea.

    I think a basic, low-level "safety net" to prevent those who fall through the cracks from outright dieing is necessary.

    But I also think that our current system, supposedly designed for that purpose, needs major overhaul.

    Additionally, it needs to, instead of just giving people money, actively demand and force (if necessary) them back into a job/workplace.

    To do that, more and better (so that people can move upwards out of the basic ones) jobs are necessary...

    To do THAT, targeted tax breaks/incentives are necessary, IMO.

    Targeted at those businesses/groups of people that, given enough incentive, are willing to start/expand a business - and in the process, hire more people.

    And even more closely targeted, so that the start/expansion is required to get said tax break.

    My underlying theory here is that, if the economy is going downhill (or at a low point after doing so previously), tax cuts/breaks and overall budget cuts are the way to go, in a generalized way.

    Obviously, if there's an imbalance in tax rates (as an extreme hypothetical example, say if the tax rate on those making $1m or more were 15%, and on those below that, 30%), then such can be addressed into the mix.

    But really, this current idea of "expect a tax increase on those making $250,000 or more per year" is a bad idea.

    If anything, it should be at least only on those making $1m or more per year.

    Small - medium businesses probably fit into the $250,000 - $1,000,000 range, depending on how they are put together legally, I would think.

    Further, I strongly disapprove of the seemly current theme of “we must raise taxes to make up our budget shortfalls…

    No, damnit, the reverse is the case - you must make budget cuts to meet your tax income.
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    Re: Was Grover Cleveland generally successful as president or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Technocratic View Post
    It's morally justified to provide assistance to those whose lives are destroyed by freak accidents or impoverished through systemic problems. Unless, of course, you're a Libertarian. In that case, the maxim is: "**** the poor, screw you, I got mine." A Libertarian has a naive, and very impractical concept of social ethics. They're applying an idealized Sociopathic Disorder to politics. I understand you, as a Libertarian, do not see the moral bankruptcy of your excessively individualist ethic. THat's okay. It's not your fault you were born that way. You just need help.

    The whole concept of redistribution of wealth is morally justified based on utilitarian grounds and for more practical reasons (social insurance against revolutions).

    Societies that do not help the impoverished, and actually increase the inequality levels, do not last very long, nor are they stable.
    One excellent response!
    What would have Mr Cleveland done with the Gulf oil spill or Katrina, or the Oklahoma drought and dust bowl ?

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    Re: Was Grover Cleveland generally successful as president or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    One excellent response!
    What would have Mr Cleveland done with the Gulf oil spill or Katrina, or the Oklahoma drought and dust bowl ?

    The government have a televised announcement and say "Buck up kiddos. We can't help you, because it would endanger the ideal of Amercan Rugged Individualism."

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    Re: Was Grover Cleveland generally successful as president or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Technocratic View Post
    It's morally justified to provide assistance to those whose lives are destroyed by freak accidents or impoverished through systemic problems. Unless, of course, you're a Libertarian. In that case, the maxim is: "**** the poor, screw you, I got mine." A Libertarian has a naive, and very impractical concept of social ethics. They're applying an idealized Sociopathic Disorder to politics. I understand you, as a Libertarian, do not see the moral bankruptcy of your excessively individualist ethic. THat's okay. It's not your fault you were born that way. You just need help.

    The whole concept of redistribution of wealth is morally justified based on utilitarian grounds and for more practical reasons (social insurance against revolutions).

    Societies that do not help the impoverished, and actually increase the inequality levels, do not last very long, nor are they stable.
    Your ideology is just government jackboots pressing down on us. Rich people, **** em. Different people **** em. We all need to be forced together to serve the interests of the state.

    See I can make silly attacks on ideologies I disagree with too.
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    Re: Was Grover Cleveland generally successful as president or not?

    If race wasn't an issue in 19th century American politics, I'd probably be a pretty good Democrat.

    Kind of funny how a Progressive, Bryan, became the Democratic Presidential candidate only four years after a much more Classical Liberal Grover Cleveland ran.
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    Re: Was Grover Cleveland generally successful as president or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    Your ideology is just government jackboots pressing down on us. Rich people, **** em. Different people **** em. We all need to be forced together to serve the interests of the state.

    See I can make silly attacks on ideologies I disagree with too.
    Ahh, the difference is that I know what your ideology is. You don't know mine. You don't need to make things up, because Libertarians are blunt about their policies and the "screw you" mentality. They don't hide it. Every once of their policies involves, unsurprisingly, favouring the wealthy or advantaged. That's not a coincidence.

    You should pause and self-reflect about Ayn Rand's philosophy Objectivism, and just where it comes from exactly. Objectivism is pretty close to Libertarianism ideologically given the Libertarian party is an offshoot of Objectivist thought.
    Last edited by Technocratic; 10-03-10 at 02:16 AM.

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    Re: Was Grover Cleveland generally successful as president or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    If race wasn't an issue in 19th century American politics, I'd probably be a pretty good Democrat.

    Kind of funny how a Progressive, Bryan, became the Democratic Presidential candidate only four years after a much more Classical Liberal Grover Cleveland ran.
    Why is that funny? The 1890s was the beginning of the era of Progressivism, and parties themselves are practical organizations of many diverse groups. Parties change. Bryan wasn't really a progressive, though. HE was a Populist.

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    Re: Was Grover Cleveland generally successful as president or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Technocratic View Post
    Ahh, the difference is that I know what your ideology is. You don't know mine.
    I know you believe in more government than me. The argument stands, you made a silly attack on Libertarianism based on accusations of selfishness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Technocratic View Post
    You should pause and self-reflect about Ayn Rand's philosophy Objectivism, and just where it comes from exactly.
    I know what Objectivism is, and I'm not an Objectivist. I believe that helping others is good, but the government forcing me to help others should only be done sparingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Technocratic View Post
    Objectivism is pretty close to Libertarianism ideologically given the Libertarian party is an offshoot of Objectivist thought.
    I don't care what the LP thinks about Objectivism. That party doesn't define me. I'm ideologically a Libertarian, but I'm politically an independent.
    Last edited by DrunkenAsparagus; 10-03-10 at 02:25 AM.
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