Legal immigration

So those that are educated are more worthy? Stupid Idea! I would rather give and help someone poor a better life over someone who is already educated and should be able to figure out how the hell to get and stay inside this country in a legal fashion

Kandahar said:

The people who constantly complain about illegal immigration are always quick to claim that they are not xenophobic, and are only motivated by a deep concern for the law. Curiously, these people never seem to advocate for easier LEGAL immigration processes...so I thought I'd make a thread to find out where everyone stands on legal immigration. Do we have too much? Not enough?

I think it's a travesty that after our universities educate foreign students, that we kick them out of the country unless they go through the onerous process of finding an employer who is willing to sponsor them for a work visa. This is completely ridiculous. Educated foreigners are not going to live off welfare; they are going to create value and add jobs to the economy. IMO, we should have almost completely open our borders for anyone with a bachelor's degree or higher, as long as there isn't any reason (e.g. crimes, communicable diseases) to keep them out.

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You need to be careful about being absolute in what you say. Our legal red tape is not an excuse for breaking the law. On the other hand, we don't open the borders for criminals with PhDs.

Kali said:

So those that are educated are more worthy? Stupid Idea! I would rather give and help someone poor a better life

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There is no reason we can't do both.

Kali said:

over someone who is already educated

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Except in the case of skilled immigrants, you don't even have to "give" them anything at all, you just need to let them come here and do their thing. They are hugely beneficial for the US economy, so why not accept as many of them as would like to come?

Kali said:

and should be able to figure out how the hell to get and stay inside this country in a legal fashion

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Huh? We're talking about legal immigration.

American said:

You need to be careful about being absolute in what you say. Our legal red tape is not an excuse for breaking the law. On the other hand, we don't open the borders for criminals with PhDs.

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Obviously there are exceptions. But aside from the occasional disqualifying trait (e.g. criminal records, links to terrorism, communicable diseases), I don't see any reason not to completely open our borders to skilled immigrants from all around the world.

My thoughts on immigration in general are that the bigger issues have to do with assimilation. We are a melting pot society, and we benefit from being one, but if our attitudes change and the flow of immigrants ever becomes such that we become Balkanized as a result, then immigration is a detriment rather than contributing to our society.

What matters to me is that people coming here want to be Americans.

Coronado said:

You still haven't explained why having too many educated people from one country is a bad thing.

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Competition with the locally educated population will drive down wages. The easier a worker can be replaced the less value they have.Immigration legal or illegal should not ever be used as a tool to devalue wages. Also if you create an excess of a highly educated labor pool alot of these people will be forced to take jobs below their field of education creating employers who expect college degrees just to flip burger, or cashier or some other job that usually just requires a high-school diploma.

I'll wait while you think of a non-racist reason.

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I have never given a racist reason for anything regarding the legal and illegal immigration debate. I guess since pro-illegals and open borders people do not have a leg to stand on you have to resort to screaming racist like a little kid who can't who can not get his way.

jamesrage said:

Competition with the locally educated population will drive down wages. The easier a worker can be replaced the less value they have.Immigration legal or illegal should not ever be used as a tool to devalue wages. Also if you create an excess of a highly educated labor pool alot of these people will be forced to take jobs below their field of education creating employers who expect college degrees just to flip burger, or cashier or some other job that usually just requires a high-school diploma.

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That is not how the labor market works. There is not a fixed amount of work to be done, and more immigrants does not mean slicing the pie thinner. Importing skilled workers means that we will have jobs that stay in this country when they otherwise would be forced to go overseas. Importing skilled workers means that there is more potential for more skilled labor positions. And importing skilled workers means that we have more potential business-starters in the country, who could employ other people in the future.

Kandahar said:

That is not how the labor market works. There is not a fixed amount of work to be done, and more immigrants does not mean slicing the pie thinner. Importing skilled workers means that we will have jobs that stay in this country when they otherwise would be forced to go overseas. Importing skilled workers means that there is more potential for more skilled labor positions. And importing skilled workers means that we have more potential business-starters in the country, who could employ other people in the future.

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That's not necessarily the case either. A lot of exported jobs are done simply because it is cheaper to have people overseas do it because they will work for so much less than American workers will, or in many cases can. That's why so much tech support has been exported to India, they work cheap because the cost of living there is so much lower than it is here. In some cases, they're working for less than federal minimum wage and it's largely college students or recent graduates who are doing the work.

The number of skilled people we have here isn't going to change the fact that it's cheaper to send the work overseas. We need to change it so that's not the case.

Cephus said:

That's not necessarily the case either. A lot of exported jobs are done simply because it is cheaper to have people overseas do it because they will work for so much less than American workers will, or in many cases can. That's why so much tech support has been exported to India, they work cheap because the cost of living there is so much lower than it is here. In some cases, they're working for less than federal minimum wage and it's largely college students or recent graduates who are doing the work.

The number of skilled people we have here isn't going to change the fact that it's cheaper to send the work overseas. We need to change it so that's not the case.

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I'm not talking about jobs that are offshored to save money. I'm talking about the jobs that would otherwise be kept in-country, but aren't because there simply aren't enough qualified workers to fill them.

Kandahar said:

I think it's a travesty that after our universities educate foreign students, that we kick them out of the country unless they go through the onerous process of finding an employer who is willing to sponsor them for a work visa. This is completely ridiculous. Educated foreigners are not going to live off welfare; they are going to create value and add jobs to the economy. IMO, we should have almost completely open our borders for anyone with a bachelor's degree or higher, as long as there isn't any reason (e.g. crimes, communicable diseases) to keep them out.

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Why is this an 'onerous process'?

People graduating at the top of their class find jobs fast. Tech firms, medical research firms, financial services and banking all hire qualified applicants from wherever they can find them. If the anti-Mosque crowd had any clue how many Muslims work on Wall street, their heads would explode.

What do you mean 'completely open our boarders'?

hazlnut said:

Why is this an 'onerous process'?

People graduating at the top of their class find jobs fast. Tech firms, medical research firms, financial services and banking all hire qualified applicants from wherever they can find them. If the anti-Mosque crowd had any clue how many Muslims work on Wall street, their heads would explode.

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It is not an easy process. It costs the company several thousand dollars to sponsor a foreign worker for a work visa. Additionally, they have to go through lots of paperwork to prove that they looked for American workers to fill the position, and that there were either none available or that the foreign worker was better than the American competition. Most employers - even large corporations - don't want to deal with the hassle.

Even at top business schools, it is very difficult for MBA graduates to find jobs if they are not from the United States. Many of my classmates were unable to do so and had to go back to their countries.

hazlnut said:

What do you mean 'completely open our boarders'?

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Allow anyone with a bachelor's degree to live/work in the United States if they want to, as long as they aren't a security or health risk. There is no valid reason not to maximize the amount of skilled workers in our country.

Kandahar said:

It is not an easy process. It costs the company several thousand dollars to sponsor a foreign worker for a work visa.

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Yes. This shows they are highly motivated to hire an exceptional individual.

Additionally, they have to go through lots of paperwork to prove that they looked for American workers to fill the position, and that there were either none available or that the foreign worker was better than the American competition. Most employers - even large corporations - don't want to deal with the hassle.

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It's not about a hassle, it's about making them review American applicants first.

A work visa essentially allows people to skip ahead in the immigration line. We should only hand it out when absolutely necessary for a firm to do business.

Even at top business schools, it is very difficult for MBA graduates to find jobs if they are not from the United States. Many of my classmates were unable to do so and had to go back to their countries.

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This is the argument that I have the most problem with: The student who graduated #17 from Wharton business school can't get a job and goes home, complaining that many students who didn't do as well got jobs.

1) They all went to Wharton.

2) Getting A's doesn't necessary mean you'll be a great employee. A 'B' student with good people skills, communication, and leadership talent could be much more of an asset depending on the job description.

3) Getting those types of jobs is about connections, networking, and demonstrating the assets you bring are worth the 'hassle'. -- If the firm can get the same assets w/o the hassle, why would a firm spend the time or money? #37 and #17 from Wharton look the same in many ways. #37 may have gotten a lower grade on a final because he was busy networking or taking interviews.

Allow anyone with a bachelor's degree to live/work in the United States if they want to, as long as they aren't a security or health risk. There is no valid reason not to maximize the amount of skilled workers in our country.

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Why would we want to flood the job market with candidates when plenty of American kids are working their asses off and not finding work right away?

U.S. Universities produce enough qualified candidates in most areas. If a certain area is short, like nursing, then we should address that. But the open-door policy you're talking about doesn't have an upside for Americans.

We must STOP embracing ideas, concepts, laws that do not work.
Its a certain sign of utter stupidity.
Have a conference with Mexico, open the borders, tear down the fences and see what happens.
At the same time we need a national ID setup.
If an immigrant is a criminal....his days are over....

jamesrage said:

Competition with the locally educated population will drive down wages. The easier a worker can be replaced the less value they have.Immigration legal or illegal should not ever be used as a tool to devalue wages. Also if you create an excess of a highly educated labor pool alot of these people will be forced to take jobs below their field of education creating employers who expect college degrees just to flip burger, or cashier or some other job that usually just requires a high-school diploma.

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Already addressed above by Kandahar.

jamesrage said:

I have never given a racist reason for anything regarding the legal and illegal immigration debate. I guess since pro-illegals and open borders people do not have a leg to stand on you have to resort to screaming racist like a little kid who can't who can not [sic] get his way.

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Yeah, pro-illegal and open border. That's me. :roll: I never said anything of the sort, but don't let that stop you from making **** up.

There always seems to be a racist contingent in the immigration reform contingent. Sad, really.

earthworm said:

We must STOP embracing ideas, concepts, laws that do not work.
Its a certain sign of utter stupidity.

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Hey, let's do away with all laws then because *NONE* of them stop the behavior they're about. A murder law has never stopped murder. A robbery law has never stopped robbery. Just beacuse we're not stopping rape doesn't mean that we ought to stop outlawing rape.

That's a certain sign of utter stupidity.

Have a conference with Mexico, open the borders, tear down the fences and see what happens.
At the same time we need a national ID setup.
If an immigrant is a criminal....his days are over....

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You'll end up with millions of poor Mexicans who want American welfare, that's what you'll get. There was a poll in Mexico last year, I believe, where they estimated that more than 70 million Mexicans would, if they thought they could get away with it, head straight to America for free stuff. While I'm sure that would include lots of drug cartel members, etc. but that's a bunch of people who want free stuff that they don't have to work for.

Back to utter stupidity. Why in the hell would we want these people here? What does it do for us?

Cephus said:

Hey, let's do away with all laws then because *NONE* of them stop the behavior they're about. A murder law has never stopped murder. A robbery law has never stopped robbery. Just beacuse we're not stopping rape doesn't mean that we ought to stop outlawing rape.

That's a certain sign of utter stupidity.

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Earthworm didn't say ignore the laws, just change them

Cephus said:

You'll end up with millions of poor Mexicans who want American welfare, that's what you'll get. There was a poll in Mexico last year, I believe, where they estimated that more than 70 million Mexicans would, if they thought they could get away with it, head straight to America for free stuff. While I'm sure that would include lots of drug cartel members, etc. but that's a bunch of people who want free stuff that they don't have to work for.

Back to utter stupidity. Why in the hell would we want these people here? What does it do for us?

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We already have millions of poor Mexicans getting free stuff.

Coronado said:

Already addressed above by Kandahar.

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Kandahar has no problem with outsourcing and hiring illegals, so he will say or print anything that supports screwing the American worker.

Yeah, pro-illegal and open border.
That's me. :roll: I never said anything of the sort, but don't let that stop you from making **** up.
There always seems to be a racist contingent in the immigration reform contingent. Sad, really.

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When you make up lies of racism like a pro-illegal and open borders crowd then one has to wonder. Amazing how you are accusing me of making up **** when you are resorting to false accusations of racism.

DrunkenAsparagus said:

Earthworm didn't say ignore the laws, just change them

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Cephus didn't say that was what Earthworm was suggesting we ignore the law.If you look at Cephus post you can clearly tell that he was commenting on the fact that just because a law doesn't stop something is no reason to no longer outlaw it IE change the law.

hazlnut said:

Yes. This shows they are highly motivated to hire an exceptional individual.

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...or we could just not make them jump through hoops in the first place.

hazlnut said:

It's not about a hassle, it's about making them review American applicants first.

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Why not just let them hire who they want?

hazlnut said:

A work visa essentially allows people to skip ahead in the immigration line. We should only hand it out when absolutely necessary for a firm to do business.

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I don't understand what you mean by "skipping ahead in the immigration line." A work visa *IS* the immigration line. Or rather, it's one of four immigration lines (the other three being asylee/refugee status, family connections, or being an illegal immigrant before 1972).

hazlnut said:

This is the argument that I have the most problem with: The student who graduated #17 from Wharton business school can't get a job and goes home, complaining that many students who didn't do as well got jobs.

1) They all went to Wharton.

2) Getting A's doesn't necessary mean you'll be a great employee. A 'B' student with good people skills, communication, and leadership talent could be much more of an asset depending on the job description.

3) Getting those types of jobs is about connections, networking, and demonstrating the assets you bring are worth the 'hassle'. -- If the firm can get the same assets w/o the hassle, why would a firm spend the time or money? #37 and #17 from Wharton look the same in many ways. #37 may have gotten a lower grade on a final because he was busy networking or taking interviews.

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I'm all for allowing firms to hire #37 AND #17 at Wharton. And for that matter, allowing them to hire graduates of Youngstown State. The fact that you are even wondering whether #37 at Wharton might be more or less qualified than #17 at Wharton is the height of absurdity. Yet this is exactly what we subject employers to.

ANYONE who went to college has some useful skills that can add to our economy. It's ridiculous that we are able to educate foreigners in our colleges, but then kick them out to be successful and start businesses back in their countries instead of here.

hazlnut said:

Why would we want to flood the job market with candidates when plenty of American kids are working their asses off and not finding work right away?

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Because the labor market (especially the skilled labor market) is not a single pie, where more workers means you slice the pie thinner. More workers means that you grow the pie bigger because there are more talented people implementing their ideas, solving problems, starting businesses, creating value, and hiring workers.

hazlnut said:

U.S. Universities produce enough qualified candidates in most areas. If a certain area is short, like nursing, then we should address that. But the open-door policy you're talking about doesn't have an upside for Americans.

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More skilled workers is about the closest thing to a free lunch we can possibly get in our economy. It is almost ENTIRELY positive. I've heard it said before (I don't know if these numbers are exactly accurate) that there will be 120 million skilled jobs in the United States...but only 50 million qualified Americans. That's pretty depressing by itself...but the reality is that if true, there will only be 50 million skilled jobs, and businesses will send the other 70 million elsewhere. We have (or will soon have) a massive shortage for skilled labor in nearly every profession. Allowing everyone who has a college degree to come here who wants to will greatly alleviate this problem, and will ensure that the United States remains a hotbed of innovation.

Kandahar said:

ANYONE who went to college has some useful skills that can add to our economy. It's ridiculous that we are able to educate foreigners in our colleges, but then kick them out to be successful and start businesses back in their countries instead of here.

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It sounds like your issue is that its easier to get a student visa, than a work visa?? We'll take their money for school, but it's hard for them to come and work here.

But that assumes that we owe somebody a job because they plunked down money to go to one of our schools. They got what they paid for. An education by one of our best schools.

If an American attends London school of economics, how are they looked at by British firms?

Because the labor market (especially the skilled labor market) is not a single pie, where more workers means you slice the pie thinner. More workers means that you grow the pie bigger because there are more talented people implementing their ideas, solving problems, starting businesses, creating value, and hiring workers.

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Bigger pies don't taste better (have more value) than smaller ones.

More of the same, is just more of the same.

If a specific industry has a problem filling positions with qualified people, the government will work with them.

Exceptional foreigners get hired by American companies every day.

Visa get expedited when a company can demonstrate a need.

More skilled workers is about the closest thing to a free lunch we can possibly get in our economy. It is almost ENTIRELY positive. I've heard it said before (I don't know if these numbers are exactly accurate) that there will be 120 million skilled jobs in the United States...but only 50 million qualified Americans. That's pretty depressing by itself...but the reality is that if true, there will only be 50 million skilled jobs, and businesses will send the other 70 million elsewhere. We have (or will soon have) a massive shortage for skilled labor in nearly every profession. Allowing everyone who has a college degree to come here who wants to will greatly alleviate this problem, and will ensure that the United States remains a hotbed of innovation.

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I guess I'd like to see your source on most of that.

What skills are your talking about?

I am a volunteer EMT. Its not uncommon to arrive on the scene of an auto accident where someone is not here legally. This causes several issues.

1) They are a ghost, no insurance.. no money. .no record of who they are.. no recourse.
2) They run away. My job is to make sure they are ok. A lot of times they run away hurt.
3) They dont know how to drive. They cant read english or take the driver test.

We can not afford to unregistered, unknown people in the country. Its not safe. I dont mind if they are registered and work/pay taxes but we have to know they are here.

jamesrage said:

Kandahar has no problem with outsourcing and hiring illegals, so he will say or print anything that supports screwing the American worker.

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Non-responsive ad hominem.

jamesrage said:

When you make up lies of racism like a pro-illegal and open borders crowd then one has to wonder. Amazing how you are accusing me of making up **** when you are resorting to false accusations of racism.

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Ah right. You are justifying making **** up by saying I make **** up. Hilarious.

You haven't given a non-race-based reason for country quotas. It's racism. Deal with it.

Coronado said:

Non-responsive ad hominem.Ah right. You are justifying making **** up by saying I make **** up. Hilarious.

You haven't given a non-race-based reason for country quotas. It's racism. Deal with it.

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I haven't been paying attention to this discussion about country quotas, but....

If it's an "X number of type Y (as in, skill level, no racial determinations) people can immigrate to the US per year from each and every country" quota, I don't see the issue.

The Mark said:

I haven't been paying attention to this discussion about country quotas, but....

If it's an "X number of type Y (as in, skill level, no racial determinations) people can immigrate to the US per year from each and every country" quota, I don't see the issue.

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If we are looking for the best and brightest, why do we have to limit it by country? It's entirely possible that some countries have more than others.

Coronado said:

Non-responsive ad hominem.Ah right. You are justifying making **** up by saying I make **** up. Hilarious.

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You are making up lies of racism and you have the nerve to accuse others of making up ****?

You haven't given a non-race-based reason for country quotas.

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I already have.Post 35 and post 22. And I have never given a race based reason for anything.If I have then I am sure that you can quote the post.

It's racism. Deal with it.

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How is it racism?