View Poll Results: Where do you stand on legal immigration?

Voters
30. You may not vote on this poll
  • We should close our borders to skilled immigrants

    1 3.33%
  • We should reduce the amount of skilled immigration

    0 0%
  • We should maintain the amount of skilled immigration

    9 30.00%
  • We should increase the amount of skilled immigration

    15 50.00%
  • We should open our borders to skilled immigrants

    13 43.33%
  • We should close our borders to unskilled immigrants

    9 30.00%
  • We should reduce the amount of unskilled immigration

    9 30.00%
  • We should maintain the amount of unskilled immigration

    3 10.00%
  • We should increase the amount of unskilled immigration

    6 20.00%
  • We should open our borders to unskilled immigrants

    6 20.00%
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Thread: Legal immigration

  1. #61
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    Re: Legal immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Why is this an 'onerous process'?

    People graduating at the top of their class find jobs fast. Tech firms, medical research firms, financial services and banking all hire qualified applicants from wherever they can find them. If the anti-Mosque crowd had any clue how many Muslims work on Wall street, their heads would explode.
    It is not an easy process. It costs the company several thousand dollars to sponsor a foreign worker for a work visa. Additionally, they have to go through lots of paperwork to prove that they looked for American workers to fill the position, and that there were either none available or that the foreign worker was better than the American competition. Most employers - even large corporations - don't want to deal with the hassle.

    Even at top business schools, it is very difficult for MBA graduates to find jobs if they are not from the United States. Many of my classmates were unable to do so and had to go back to their countries.

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut
    What do you mean 'completely open our boarders'?
    Allow anyone with a bachelor's degree to live/work in the United States if they want to, as long as they aren't a security or health risk. There is no valid reason not to maximize the amount of skilled workers in our country.
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    Re: Legal immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    It is not an easy process. It costs the company several thousand dollars to sponsor a foreign worker for a work visa.
    Yes. This shows they are highly motivated to hire an exceptional individual.


    Additionally, they have to go through lots of paperwork to prove that they looked for American workers to fill the position, and that there were either none available or that the foreign worker was better than the American competition. Most employers - even large corporations - don't want to deal with the hassle.
    It's not about a hassle, it's about making them review American applicants first.

    A work visa essentially allows people to skip ahead in the immigration line. We should only hand it out when absolutely necessary for a firm to do business.

    Even at top business schools, it is very difficult for MBA graduates to find jobs if they are not from the United States. Many of my classmates were unable to do so and had to go back to their countries.
    This is the argument that I have the most problem with: The student who graduated #17 from Wharton business school can't get a job and goes home, complaining that many students who didn't do as well got jobs.

    1) They all went to Wharton.

    2) Getting A's doesn't necessary mean you'll be a great employee. A 'B' student with good people skills, communication, and leadership talent could be much more of an asset depending on the job description.

    3) Getting those types of jobs is about connections, networking, and demonstrating the assets you bring are worth the 'hassle'. -- If the firm can get the same assets w/o the hassle, why would a firm spend the time or money? #37 and #17 from Wharton look the same in many ways. #37 may have gotten a lower grade on a final because he was busy networking or taking interviews.

    Allow anyone with a bachelor's degree to live/work in the United States if they want to, as long as they aren't a security or health risk. There is no valid reason not to maximize the amount of skilled workers in our country.
    Why would we want to flood the job market with candidates when plenty of American kids are working their asses off and not finding work right away?

    U.S. Universities produce enough qualified candidates in most areas. If a certain area is short, like nursing, then we should address that. But the open-door policy you're talking about doesn't have an upside for Americans.

  3. #63
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    Re: Legal immigration

    We must STOP embracing ideas, concepts, laws that do not work.
    Its a certain sign of utter stupidity.
    Have a conference with Mexico, open the borders, tear down the fences and see what happens.
    At the same time we need a national ID setup.
    If an immigrant is a criminal....his days are over....

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    Re: Legal immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Competition with the locally educated population will drive down wages. The easier a worker can be replaced the less value they have.Immigration legal or illegal should not ever be used as a tool to devalue wages. Also if you create an excess of a highly educated labor pool alot of these people will be forced to take jobs below their field of education creating employers who expect college degrees just to flip burger, or cashier or some other job that usually just requires a high-school diploma.
    Already addressed above by Kandahar.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I have never given a racist reason for anything regarding the legal and illegal immigration debate. I guess since pro-illegals and open borders people do not have a leg to stand on you have to resort to screaming racist like a little kid who can't who can not [sic] get his way.
    Yeah, pro-illegal and open border. That's me. I never said anything of the sort, but don't let that stop you from making **** up.

    There always seems to be a racist contingent in the immigration reform contingent. Sad, really.

  5. #65
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    Re: Legal immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    We must STOP embracing ideas, concepts, laws that do not work.
    Its a certain sign of utter stupidity.
    Hey, let's do away with all laws then because *NONE* of them stop the behavior they're about. A murder law has never stopped murder. A robbery law has never stopped robbery. Just beacuse we're not stopping rape doesn't mean that we ought to stop outlawing rape.

    That's a certain sign of utter stupidity.

    Have a conference with Mexico, open the borders, tear down the fences and see what happens.
    At the same time we need a national ID setup.
    If an immigrant is a criminal....his days are over....
    You'll end up with millions of poor Mexicans who want American welfare, that's what you'll get. There was a poll in Mexico last year, I believe, where they estimated that more than 70 million Mexicans would, if they thought they could get away with it, head straight to America for free stuff. While I'm sure that would include lots of drug cartel members, etc. but that's a bunch of people who want free stuff that they don't have to work for.

    Back to utter stupidity. Why in the hell would we want these people here? What does it do for us?
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  6. #66
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    Re: Legal immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Hey, let's do away with all laws then because *NONE* of them stop the behavior they're about. A murder law has never stopped murder. A robbery law has never stopped robbery. Just beacuse we're not stopping rape doesn't mean that we ought to stop outlawing rape.

    That's a certain sign of utter stupidity.
    Earthworm didn't say ignore the laws, just change them



    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    You'll end up with millions of poor Mexicans who want American welfare, that's what you'll get. There was a poll in Mexico last year, I believe, where they estimated that more than 70 million Mexicans would, if they thought they could get away with it, head straight to America for free stuff. While I'm sure that would include lots of drug cartel members, etc. but that's a bunch of people who want free stuff that they don't have to work for.

    Back to utter stupidity. Why in the hell would we want these people here? What does it do for us?
    We already have millions of poor Mexicans getting free stuff.
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  7. #67
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    Re: Legal immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by Coronado View Post
    Already addressed above by Kandahar.
    Kandahar has no problem with outsourcing and hiring illegals, so he will say or print anything that supports screwing the American worker.

    Yeah, pro-illegal and open border.
    That's me. I never said anything of the sort, but don't let that stop you from making **** up.
    There always seems to be a racist contingent in the immigration reform contingent. Sad, really.
    When you make up lies of racism like a pro-illegal and open borders crowd then one has to wonder. Amazing how you are accusing me of making up **** when you are resorting to false accusations of racism.
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  8. #68
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    Re: Legal immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenAsparagus View Post
    Earthworm didn't say ignore the laws, just change them
    Cephus didn't say that was what Earthworm was suggesting we ignore the law.If you look at Cephus post you can clearly tell that he was commenting on the fact that just because a law doesn't stop something is no reason to no longer outlaw it IE change the law.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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  9. #69
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    Re: Legal immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Yes. This shows they are highly motivated to hire an exceptional individual.
    ...or we could just not make them jump through hoops in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut
    It's not about a hassle, it's about making them review American applicants first.
    Why not just let them hire who they want?

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut
    A work visa essentially allows people to skip ahead in the immigration line. We should only hand it out when absolutely necessary for a firm to do business.
    I don't understand what you mean by "skipping ahead in the immigration line." A work visa *IS* the immigration line. Or rather, it's one of four immigration lines (the other three being asylee/refugee status, family connections, or being an illegal immigrant before 1972).

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut
    This is the argument that I have the most problem with: The student who graduated #17 from Wharton business school can't get a job and goes home, complaining that many students who didn't do as well got jobs.

    1) They all went to Wharton.

    2) Getting A's doesn't necessary mean you'll be a great employee. A 'B' student with good people skills, communication, and leadership talent could be much more of an asset depending on the job description.

    3) Getting those types of jobs is about connections, networking, and demonstrating the assets you bring are worth the 'hassle'. -- If the firm can get the same assets w/o the hassle, why would a firm spend the time or money? #37 and #17 from Wharton look the same in many ways. #37 may have gotten a lower grade on a final because he was busy networking or taking interviews.
    I'm all for allowing firms to hire #37 AND #17 at Wharton. And for that matter, allowing them to hire graduates of Youngstown State. The fact that you are even wondering whether #37 at Wharton might be more or less qualified than #17 at Wharton is the height of absurdity. Yet this is exactly what we subject employers to.

    ANYONE who went to college has some useful skills that can add to our economy. It's ridiculous that we are able to educate foreigners in our colleges, but then kick them out to be successful and start businesses back in their countries instead of here.

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut
    Why would we want to flood the job market with candidates when plenty of American kids are working their asses off and not finding work right away?
    Because the labor market (especially the skilled labor market) is not a single pie, where more workers means you slice the pie thinner. More workers means that you grow the pie bigger because there are more talented people implementing their ideas, solving problems, starting businesses, creating value, and hiring workers.

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut
    U.S. Universities produce enough qualified candidates in most areas. If a certain area is short, like nursing, then we should address that. But the open-door policy you're talking about doesn't have an upside for Americans.
    More skilled workers is about the closest thing to a free lunch we can possibly get in our economy. It is almost ENTIRELY positive. I've heard it said before (I don't know if these numbers are exactly accurate) that there will be 120 million skilled jobs in the United States...but only 50 million qualified Americans. That's pretty depressing by itself...but the reality is that if true, there will only be 50 million skilled jobs, and businesses will send the other 70 million elsewhere. We have (or will soon have) a massive shortage for skilled labor in nearly every profession. Allowing everyone who has a college degree to come here who wants to will greatly alleviate this problem, and will ensure that the United States remains a hotbed of innovation.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 10-03-10 at 09:25 PM.
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  10. #70
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    Re: Legal immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    ANYONE who went to college has some useful skills that can add to our economy. It's ridiculous that we are able to educate foreigners in our colleges, but then kick them out to be successful and start businesses back in their countries instead of here.
    It sounds like your issue is that its easier to get a student visa, than a work visa?? We'll take their money for school, but it's hard for them to come and work here.

    But that assumes that we owe somebody a job because they plunked down money to go to one of our schools. They got what they paid for. An education by one of our best schools.

    If an American attends London school of economics, how are they looked at by British firms?

    Because the labor market (especially the skilled labor market) is not a single pie, where more workers means you slice the pie thinner. More workers means that you grow the pie bigger because there are more talented people implementing their ideas, solving problems, starting businesses, creating value, and hiring workers.
    Bigger pies don't taste better (have more value) than smaller ones.

    More of the same, is just more of the same.

    If a specific industry has a problem filling positions with qualified people, the government will work with them.

    Exceptional foreigners get hired by American companies every day.

    Visa get expedited when a company can demonstrate a need.

    More skilled workers is about the closest thing to a free lunch we can possibly get in our economy. It is almost ENTIRELY positive. I've heard it said before (I don't know if these numbers are exactly accurate) that there will be 120 million skilled jobs in the United States...but only 50 million qualified Americans. That's pretty depressing by itself...but the reality is that if true, there will only be 50 million skilled jobs, and businesses will send the other 70 million elsewhere. We have (or will soon have) a massive shortage for skilled labor in nearly every profession. Allowing everyone who has a college degree to come here who wants to will greatly alleviate this problem, and will ensure that the United States remains a hotbed of innovation.
    I guess I'd like to see your source on most of that.

    What skills are your talking about?

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