View Poll Results: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

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  • Yes, they should be paid more each year they teach.

    4 8.33%
  • No (please explain how you think they should be paid)

    44 91.67%
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Thread: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

  1. #51
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    I am all for rewarding the good and firing the bad, BUT, we should be able to fire the kids as well.
    I worked in scouting a few times over the years. If I had a bad kid, I told him to go home. If his parents complained, I told them their child was welcome, as long as a parent comes along with him to see to it that he behaves.
    Teachers should be able to say that they will not accept troublemakers in their classrooms. If the kid wants to reject the education being offered, it should be documented. That way he/she can be denied welfare benefits later on....
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Entirely on merit? How will you get good teachers to work in the bad schools?
    Merit isn't necessarily defined by having higher test scores than any other teacher. It should measure which teachers' students show the biggest IMPROVEMENT in their test scores from one year to the next...or even better, which teacher's students show the biggest improvement relative to what their demographics would suggest you could expect.

    A teacher who increased her students' performance by 0.9 grade levels during the school year could be considered a huge success, if an average teacher could only be expected to increase the same group of students' performance by 0.4 grade levels. On the other hand, a teacher who only increased her students' performance by 0.9 grade levels would be an abject failure in a system where an average teacher raised the students' performance by 1.5 grade levels.

    You'll attract good teachers to bad schools the same way you attract them to any other school: By challenging them to defy expectations, and rewarding them when they do.
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  3. #53
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    It shouldn't even be based on experience. It should be based on performance.

    What is the point of paying a crappy teacher that happens to have 15 years of crappy experience more money then a good teacher with less experience?


    I read an article from the woman who was part of the "Waiting for Superman" documentary that just came out. In it she said she offered to double teacher's salaries (some would earn north of $150k a year) in her district if the teacher's union would eliminate tenure and allow job security to be based on performance rather then longevity. The union said tenure was completely off the table for any negotiations.
    "Gold gets dug out of the ground in Africa, or someplace. Then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility. Anyone watching from Mars would be scratching their head."
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    It shouldn't even be based on experience. It should be based on performance.

    What is the point of paying a crappy teacher that happens to have 15 years of crappy experience more money then a good teacher with less experience?


    I read an article from the woman who was part of the "Waiting for Superman" documentary that just came out. In it she said she offered to double teacher's salaries (some would earn north of $150k a year) in her district if the teacher's union would eliminate tenure and allow job security to be based on performance rather then longevity. The union said tenure was completely off the table for any negotiations.
    That was Michelle Rhee, the chancellor of the DC school systems. She's made a remarkable amount of progress in improving test scores in the District in the three years she's been on the job. But the teachers' union mounted a huge campaign against our mayor, Adrian Fenty, who supported Rhee and was a big proponent of education reform himself. He's now out of a job, and the presumptive mayor-elect looks set to replace Rhee, do the union's bidding, and roll back all of the progress the DC schools have made in the last few years.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 10-03-10 at 04:28 PM.
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    That was Michelle Rhee, the chancellor of the DC school systems. She's made a remarkable amount of progress in improving test scores in the District in the three years she's been on the job. But the teachers' union mounted a huge campaign against our mayor, Adrian Fenty, who supported Rhee and was a big proponent of education reform himself. He's now out of a job, and the presumptive mayor-elect looks set to replace Rhee, do the union's bidding, and roll back all of the progress the DC schools have made in the last few years.
    All to support teachers scared ****less of losing their job because they know they don't have the passion to put in the dedication the children deserve.
    "Gold gets dug out of the ground in Africa, or someplace. Then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility. Anyone watching from Mars would be scratching their head."
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Well, think of this. Most young entrepreneurial students of education likewise wouldn't find the offer attractive. If you eliminate the job security portion of an educator's job, you will receive far less incentive for educators to accept the plan. Now, a significant portion of government employees like their job in part because of the job security for which it provides. Those in the private sector typically make more money per year than a government worker, so a number of incentives are created to make it seem worthwhile. This includes a high sense of mission, government benefits, and a relatively consistent feeling of job security. So, by emphasizing more on accountability in a tough district, such as Washington D.C., while trying to tweak with some of the other characteristics of a government position, you may encounter some backlash. Bigger salaries sounds interesting, but without confidence that their hard work will pay off in measurement, why would they offer to put their neck on the line? Furthermore, what if they feel ill-at-ease with the concept that perhaps they can be let go for relatively arbitrary reasons, when the situation seems to be that they are being let go because it is cheaper to continue hiring new teachers and let them go each time their contract runs empty?

    It is complicated.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    I have no problem with paying the taxes. You're preaching to the choir. My issue is that the tenor of others right now is creating an atmosphere where the majority will vote it down.

  8. #58
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Well, think of this. Most young entrepreneurial students of education likewise wouldn't find the offer attractive. If you eliminate the job security portion of an educator's job, you will receive far less incentive for educators to accept the plan. Now, a significant portion of government employees like their job in part because of the job security for which it provides. Those in the private sector typically make more money per year than a government worker, so a number of incentives are created to make it seem worthwhile. This includes a high sense of mission, government benefits, and a relatively consistent feeling of job security. So, by emphasizing more on accountability in a tough district, such as Washington D.C., while trying to tweak with some of the other characteristics of a government position, you may encounter some backlash. Bigger salaries sounds interesting, but without confidence that their hard work will pay off in measurement, why would they offer to put their neck on the line? Furthermore, what if they feel ill-at-ease with the concept that perhaps they can be let go for relatively arbitrary reasons, when the situation seems to be that they are being let go because it is cheaper to continue hiring new teachers and let them go each time their contract runs empty?

    It is complicated.
    Your initial premise is incorrect. Government workers make more money than their private counterparts.

    Federal employees earn higher average salaries than private-sector workers in more than eight out of 10 occupations, a USA TODAY analysis of federal data finds. Accountants, nurses, chemists, surveyors, cooks, clerks and janitors are among the wide range of jobs that get paid more on average in the federal government than in the private sector.

    Overall, federal workers earned an average salary of $67,691 in 2008 for occupations that exist both in government and the private sector, according to Bureau of Labor Statistics data. The average pay for the same mix of jobs in the private sector was $60,046 in 2008, the most recent data available. Federal pay ahead of private industry - USATODAY.com


    CHART: Federal salaries compared to private-sector -- Federal pay ahead of private industry - USATODAY.com

    These salary figures do not include the value of health, pension and other benefits, which averaged $40,785 per federal employee in 2008 vs. $9,882 per private worker, according to the Bureau of Economic Analysis.
    Real the bolded part. That oughta' scare everybody.
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Well, think of this. Most young entrepreneurial students of education likewise wouldn't find the offer attractive. If you eliminate the job security portion of an educator's job, you will receive far less incentive for educators to accept the plan. Now, a significant portion of government employees like their job in part because of the job security for which it provides. Those in the private sector typically make more money per year than a government worker, so a number of incentives are created to make it seem worthwhile. This includes a high sense of mission, government benefits, and a relatively consistent feeling of job security. So, by emphasizing more on accountability in a tough district, such as Washington D.C., while trying to tweak with some of the other characteristics of a government position, you may encounter some backlash. Bigger salaries sounds interesting, but without confidence that their hard work will pay off in measurement, why would they offer to put their neck on the line? Furthermore, what if they feel ill-at-ease with the concept that perhaps they can be let go for relatively arbitrary reasons, when the situation seems to be that they are being let go because it is cheaper to continue hiring new teachers and let them go each time their contract runs empty?

    It is complicated.
    Michelle Rhee's proposal wasn't even mandatory. She suggested that all teachers be ALLOWED to forego tenure in exchange for (potentially higher) merit pay. If they felt uncomfortable with it, they could opt for the conventional track (tenure plus small raises each year). The union felt so threatened that they wouldn't even let their members vote on it. And ever since then, they've been on a jihad against Rhee and Fenty, which it appears that they have won.
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Merit isn't necessarily defined by having higher test scores than any other teacher. It should measure which teachers' students show the biggest IMPROVEMENT in their test scores from one year to the next...or even better, which teacher's students show the biggest improvement relative to what their demographics would suggest you could expect.

    A teacher who increased her students' performance by 0.9 grade levels during the school year could be considered a huge success, if an average teacher could only be expected to increase the same group of students' performance by 0.4 grade levels. On the other hand, a teacher who only increased her students' performance by 0.9 grade levels would be an abject failure in a system where an average teacher raised the students' performance by 1.5 grade levels.

    You'll attract good teachers to bad schools the same way you attract them to any other school: By challenging them to defy expectations, and rewarding them when they do.
    this has not worked locally. good teachers in affluent schools have been offered up to $15,000 annually as a supplement to their salaries to move to horrendous schools
    good teachers like to teach. little teaching can be accomplished in some awful schools where the students - to large degree - are not there to get an education
    in my kids' former HS, there were 56 students attending, ages 19, 20 and 21, who had fewer than 10 credits. most of them had no statistical chance to earn the credits needed to receive a diploma. and this is at a nationally ranked, top ten HS. for many, school is a social activity, free breakfast and lunch, a place to market their illicit wares, and for their parents, the basis to collect a larger monthly check
    being unable to get good teachers to move for the $15,000 annual premium, the system began transferring them by directed assignment. no surprise, the surrounding communities now have a large number of excellent teachers who used to work here
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
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