View Poll Results: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

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  • Yes, they should be paid more each year they teach.

    4 8.33%
  • No (please explain how you think they should be paid)

    44 91.67%
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Thread: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

  1. #21
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    As to the thread title - "merit" sounds great but if you teach top of the league kids with rich parents you're going to get pretty high grades every year. Does that mean you should be paid more than someone who is in an inner city motivating kids off crack or out of gangs to attend school or getting kids with horrible backgrounds to pass even a basic exam?

    For example - little Johnny passed all his exams with grade A* so teacher A gets paid extra for the efforts of parents, after class tuition and the expensive equipment his parents paid for while teacher B has managed to get Joe (who could barely read or write by 16) to pass one single exam with a C grade?
    No. There are ways to control for those variables, so that a teacher's performance is based on the IMPROVEMENT in their students' abilities (relative to how much an average teacher would have got the same students to improve).

    I understand that standardized tests are no panacea, but they are the best measurement tool that we have at the present time. If you know of a better one, by all means suggest it. But we need to have SOME kind of quantitative measurement. It is very difficult to improve things if we have no way of measuring success or failure.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 09-29-10 at 10:16 AM.
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    No. There are ways to control for those variables, so that a teacher's performance is based on the IMPROVEMENT in their students' abilities (relative to how much an average teacher would have got the same students to improve).
    And if Johnny's friend moves away or his parents have a divorce and he is in no mood to do school work that year, what than?

  3. #23
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    And if Johnny's friend moves away or his parents have a divorce and he is in no mood to do school work that year, what than?
    The average teacher has at least 25 students (even more in the upper grade levels). The circumstances of individual students even out in the aggregate, and would not affect the teacher's overall performance. Besides, the risk of something like that happening to lower a teacher's performance review occasionally is simply not as important as making sure that children have decent educations.
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The average teacher has at least 25 students (even more in the upper grade levels). The circumstances of individual students even out in the aggregate, and would not affect the teacher's overall performance. Besides, the risk of something like that happening to lower a teacher's performance review occasionally is simply not as important as making sure that children have decent educations.
    This would have to be based on the assumption that only one or two of those students are having issues though. Also, it is incredibly unfair to blame a teacher for something that is beyond their control.

  5. #25
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mellie View Post
    Simple question. Maybe a simple answer.

    Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    If so, why?
    If not, how would you revamp the salary schedules if you were in charge?
    I picked no. Teachers should be also paid on results and what type of classes they teach. For example if they teach special ED(emotional disturbed) LD(learning disability) , or some other classes that require a bit more of expertise to deal with the children then those teachers should get paid more than your average teachers. If a regular teacher has a higher than average number of students fail the class and grade level state tests(so that way we know the teacher is not just passing kids to earn more pay) then that teacher should be paid less and if results do not improve that teacher should be fired. If a teacher has a higher than a average number of students pass the class as well as state tests then that teacher should be paid more(this of course assuming the teacher is not deliberately keeping more advance kids to pad the number of passing kids in his class).
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    This would have to be based on the assumption that only one or two of those students are having issues though.
    If Teacher A and Teacher B are teaching similar classes with similar demographics in the same school, there's no reason to expect that any of these external circumstances would harm the performance of one teacher's class more than the other's. In the aggregate, they should have roughly the same number of students who had the same problems, if the students were randomly assigned to one class or the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman
    Also, it is incredibly unfair to blame a teacher for something that is beyond their control.
    Not nearly as unfair as not instituting merit pay unless it is perfect, thus ensuring that more students get a substandard education. Ultimately, the reason the schools exist is to educate the students, not to provide jobs for the teachers. Therefore any concern about how merit pay could lead to unfairness is a secondary concern at best.
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    If Teacher A and Teacher B are teaching similar classes with similar demographics in the same school, there's no reason to expect that any of these external circumstances would harm the performance of one teacher's class more than the other's. In the aggregate, they should have roughly the same number of students who had the same problems, if the students were randomly assigned to one class or the other.
    Perhaps if its a five year moving average or something like that. I don't think 25 student's is enough to really iron out the occasional noise as 4% (100%/25students) can make a huge difference here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Not nearly as unfair as not instituting merit pay unless it is perfect, thus ensuring that more students get a substandard education. Ultimately, the reason the schools exist is to educate the students, not to provide jobs for the teachers. Therefore any concern about how merit pay could lead to unfairness is a secondary concern at best.
    I disagree. Part of any successful system is one that is going to attempt to attract adequate talent to the profession. If the system is structured against the people performing the duties, you will see that impact on quality.

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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant Noodle View Post
    Teachers in Illinois are FAR overpaid. WAAAAAY overpaid. NO pension! And they should be paid per MONTH. To me their yearly pay based on 9 months of service should be no more than $40K. PLUS they should pay for their health insurance like the rest of America. 20% of their pay should go to health insurance. These people dont do it because they LOVE it (for the most part). They do it because of the AWESOME pay, pension, benefits and 3 months off. And its a fairly EASY JOB!!!!!!
    I didn't vote 'cause I didn't like any of the options. And I copied Noodle's post because it SO bears repeating. Illinois is a mess!!!

    That aside, my suggestions would be:

    A combination of experiential (up to five years) and merit increases with a built-in maximum allowed per year.
    Determine performance based on a weighted combination of standardized test results, administrator ratings, student ratings (high school), parent ratings. Maybe, right off the top, test results make up 90%, the other three make up 10%.
    Abolish tenure.

    After five years' experience, one's base is set. One would have to have something in place that would allow the base to move as the starting salary increased.

    All pensions designed like the private sector. Defined contribution rather than defined benefit. (Defined benefit is what's absolutely KILLED Illinois.)

    All teacher salary information published each year and distributed to the community-at-large.
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  9. #29
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    No. There are ways to control for those variables, so that a teacher's performance is based on the IMPROVEMENT in their students' abilities (relative to how much an average teacher would have got the same students to improve).

    I understand that standardized tests are no panacea, but they are the best measurement tool that we have at the present time. If you know of a better one, by all means suggest it. But we need to have SOME kind of quantitative measurement. It is very difficult to improve things if we have no way of measuring success or failure.
    I'm honestly struggling to understand how your reply (you quoted me) and question for me to suggest an "alternative measurement tool" relates to what I said?

    As Jamesrage alludes above - Teachers coach students and head teachers try to ensure that groups are put together to ensure the best test results for their school. Education should not be driven by test results but by what the learners / students / children gain in the mid to long term from the experience and the current desire to test and measure everything is (in my opinion) one of the worst things to happen to education. All I'd ask for is a bit longer for the rotation of the habitual education cycles that we get subjected to. Academic students should be tested through educational tests while vocational students should be tested through appropriate vocational assignments.

    For the record, I work in education and have seen standardised tests / coursework grades / targets for students / targets for teachers etc come round at least twice in my teaching career - so in relation to your question - I've been subjected and or asked to apply a variety of measures as different politicians come through and different education "theory" comes in and out of vogue. I've worked with learners / students / children (whatever the in-vogue term is) who had grade A and those who scraped through by sheer luck - the difference is nearly always what happens at home in terms of encouragement and involvement with education - and nobody ever tests that when coming up with a new theory that we educators will then have to jump through and apply to our practice.

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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    I'm honestly struggling to understand how your reply (you quoted me) and question for me to suggest an "alternative measurement tool" relates to what I said?
    The problem is that there are no good measurement tool, but this does not mean we should use a bad one in order to use something.

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