View Poll Results: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

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  • Yes, they should be paid more each year they teach.

    4 8.33%
  • No (please explain how you think they should be paid)

    44 91.67%
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Thread: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

  1. #171
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by Layla_Z View Post
    Teaching is not a job anyone can do. It takes training, experience, and education. Your last statement is insulting to all teachers. Teaching is a profession that requires at least a 4-year degree. Many teachers have even more education. This is education that they paid for, often attending classes at night while working full time during the day. It is insulting to imply that any monkey can teach.
    I didn't say that any monkey could teach; I certainly wouldn't know where to begin. (What *is* insulting, is your implication that people without 4-year degrees are monkeys, though.)

    That doesn't change the fact that there are plenty of people who are great with kids, who would make great teachers even without formal education. And if they're capable of producing demonstrable achievement amongst their students, I don't see any reason they shouldn't be given the opportunity just because they don't have a piece of paper from a university saying that they sat through some classes when they were 21.

    If there is any proven correlation between student achievement, and a teacher having lots of pieces of paper with university seals on them, I've never seen it.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 10-06-10 at 12:45 AM.
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  2. #172
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    Except that history shows that before the advent of government indoctrination centers parents taught their kids or sent them to private school. We did turn out pretty well with that system.

    BTW, I vote no because government indoctrination centers should be closed.
    When this was true reading, writing, and arithmitic were all a child needed. Most parents do not have the knowledge necessary to prepare their child for college. Additionally, much more is known about how to teach. Teachers are trained in how to teach kids according to how they learn best. Would you like to go back to the medical practices of the time you describe? Me either.
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  3. #173
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    Except that history shows that before the advent of government indoctrination centers parents taught their kids or sent them to private school. We did turn out pretty well with that system.

    BTW, I vote no because government indoctrination centers should be closed.
    Let's see here, Patriot, very conservative, calls schools indoctrination centers....
    and you have a slanted view on history....
    How could parents teach their kids when most of them, the parents, couldn't read? IT would work well for the rich. To keep educating only the rich and let the poor remain ignorant might suit the business world of the 18th century, but it won't work now.
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  4. #174
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Let's see here, Patriot, very conservative, calls schools indoctrination centers....
    and you have a slanted view on history....
    How could parents teach their kids when most of them, the parents, couldn't read? IT would work well for the rich. To keep educating only the rich and let the poor remain ignorant might suit the business world of the 18th century, but it won't work now.
    To be fair, the literacy rate in the mid to late 1800s went from around 70% to 80 or 90%, can't remember off the top of my head.
    That was for whites, for blacks it was much lower but still increasing.
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  5. #175
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Why should the parent be given the option to refuse? If the kid needs remedial classes, put him in remedial classes. And if the parent hates the idea that much, they should be able to choose a different school.



    The innate abilities of a teacher's class can be controlled for, when determining how effective the teacher is. The teacher of a remedial class would not be expected to produce the same quality students as the teacher of an advanced class.



    Why? Do those things affect student outcomes?



    A better analogy is judging the dentist on how effectively he fills the cavities that his patients *DO* have. But let's examine your analogy a little more closely: If you have two dentists at the same facility with roughly the same demographic of patients, why SHOULDN'T you be able to judge them on this? If they're both educating their patients on dental care, but one dentist's patients are doing a better job, it sounds to me like he's doing something right. Maybe the other dentist should learn from him and adopt his techniques, instead of just throwing up his hands and saying that his patients are a lost cause.
    I agree that parents shouldn't be able to refuse, but they can.

    First, I never said anyone was a lost cause. You need to remember that we are talking about people not some raw material that is consistent. If school adminstrators would take the time to analyze data the way you've described I might agree to using that data to help determine salary along with experience and education. However, I don't think that is what would happen.
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  6. #176
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    To be fair, the literacy rate in the mid to late 1800s went from around 70% to 80 or 90%, can't remember off the top of my head.
    That was for whites, for blacks it was much lower but still increasing.
    I think your numbers are a bit off, but......
    Yes, by the mid to late 19th century, factory owners had learned that a certain amount of education was desired for the workers. It is harder to train an uneducated person for a job. Once we started moving away from manual and unskilled labor, an education became an asset.
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  7. #177
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by Layla_Z View Post
    I agree that parents shouldn't be able to refuse, but they can.

    First, I never said anyone was a lost cause. You need to remember that we are talking about people not some raw material that is consistent. If school adminstrators would take the time to analyze data the way you've described I might agree to using that data to help determine salary along with experience and education. However, I don't think that is what would happen.
    They need not do it themselves. IBM and Oracle both offer data analytic services that are cheap, for no more data than an individual school would have.
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  8. #178
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Let's see here, Patriot, very conservative, calls schools indoctrination centers....
    and you have a slanted view on history....
    How could parents teach their kids when most of them, the parents, couldn't read? IT would work well for the rich. To keep educating only the rich and let the poor remain ignorant might suit the business world of the 18th century, but it won't work now.
    Historical documentation doesn't support you. Here is this tidbit from the article Education in Colonial America.

    The results of colonial America’s free market system of education were impressive indeed. Almost no tax money was spent on education, yet education was available to almost anyone who wanted it, including the poor. No government subsidies were given, and inefficient institutions either improved or went out of business. Competition guaranteed that scarce educational resources would be allocated properly. The educational institutions that prospered produced a generation of articulate Americans who could grapple with the complex problems of self-government. The Federalist Papers, which are seldom read or understood today, even in our universities, were written for and read by the common man. Literacy rates were as high or higher than they are today.[36] A study conducted in 1800 by DuPont de Nemours revealed that only four in a thousand Americans were unable to read and write legibly.[37] Various accounts from colonial America support these statistics. In 1772, Jacob Duche, the Chaplain of Congress, later turned Tory, wrote:[38]

    36. Rousas John Rushdoony, The Messianic Character of American Education (Nutley, N.J.: The Craig Press, 1963, 1979), p. 330.
    Link

    I call public schools government indoctrination centers because that is what they are designed to do. They are designed not to teach, but to allocate a certain percentage of students into certain job classes and to teach the students to follow orders with no creative or intellectual thought allowed. I suggest you read Underground History of American Education by John Gatto. It's free.
    Last edited by The_Patriot; 10-06-10 at 01:00 AM.

  9. #179
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I didn't say that any monkey could teach; I certainly wouldn't know where to begin. (What *is* insulting, is your implication that people without 4-year degrees are monkeys, though.)
    I did not say that and I never would. It's a shame that you can't engage in a discussion without that kind of garbage!

    I'm sure there are many people who would make excellent teachers without multiple degrees. I also know that those people could be even better with training. Teaching is more than being great with kids. It is knowledge of a subject, knowledge of how to teach, classroom management, brain theory, learning styles, and so many more topics. Teaching a small group of motivated kids is completely different from teaching 30 apathetic kids. When I say education I don't just mean sitting in a classroom earning degrees. I mean training in the most current teaching techniques.
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  10. #180
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    They need not do it themselves. IBM and Oracle both offer data analytic services that are cheap, for no more data than an individual school would have.
    IBM and Oracle will not do it for free, so taxes will go up...
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