View Poll Results: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

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  • Yes, they should be paid more each year they teach.

    4 8.33%
  • No (please explain how you think they should be paid)

    44 91.67%
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Thread: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

  1. #121
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    not really because you would have to replace them with two competent teachers...who you would then have to pay more.
    Not necessarily, as class size doesn't actually have very much correlation to student performance, despite the conventional wisdom. But I digress. My point is that data analytics is not particularly expensive for a school, since there really isn't that much data to analyze. IBM could do it all in a single day. Even a failing school should be able to find enough money for something that will actually help students. And if not, raise taxes to pay for it. More educational spending would be well worth it, if it actually improved student performance as this would. The problem is that schools waste too much money on crap that doesn't actually benefit students.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 10-04-10 at 01:54 PM.
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  2. #122
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The problem is that schools waste too much money on crap that doesn't actually benefit students.
    with that I can agree 100%
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    I guess my concern is that it really doesn't address what I consider to be the root problem. the root problem isn't the existance of a small % of crappy teachers. the root problem is the % of crappy students that won't respond to even the best of teachers.

    everyone is so concerned about getting rid of bad teachers. maybe we need to look into a method of getting rid of bad students.
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    I guess my concern is that it really doesn't address what I consider to be the root problem. the root problem isn't the existance of a small % of crappy teachers. the root problem is the % of crappy students that won't respond to even the best of teachers.

    everyone is so concerned about getting rid of bad teachers. maybe we need to look into a method of getting rid of bad students.
    Yep. We need to bring back tracking.

  5. #125
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    By expelling them for misbehavior, or transferring them to a school for students with behavioral or learning disabilities.



    What exactly do you propose that we do about that?

    I've always believed that blaming the parents is just a cop-out, because it is an excuse to avoid making necessary changes to our educational system. Of course there are bad parents, but there is very little that can be done about that. Replacing bad teachers is easy...or at least it should be.
    they can be fined if they allow their dropout kids to roam the streets, they can even be jailed right along those kids when they break the law.
    Hillary liked to say, it takes a village to raise a child. I say if the village has no say in who has kids, the village should not be responsible for the kids. The village should have the right to say no to parents who have already demonstrated that they pop out kids just for the tax credit and have no desire to raise the child properly...
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  6. #126
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Not necessarily, as class size doesn't actually have very much correlation to student performance, despite the conventional wisdom. But I digress. My point is that data analytics is not particularly expensive for a school, since there really isn't that much data to analyze. IBM could do it all in a single day. Even a failing school should be able to find enough money for something that will actually help students. And if not, raise taxes to pay for it. More educational spending would be well worth it, if it actually improved student performance as this would. The problem is that schools waste too much money on crap that doesn't actually benefit students.
    Well, it also doesn't help that education keeps getting politicized by stuff that should have nothing to do it with it. Take, for example, the controversies over Intelligent Design, or how the Texas School Board is holding textbooks all over the U.S. hostage. All too often politicians from both sides want to use public education for leverage with issues that shouldn't have nothing to do with public education. That doesn't help things either.

  7. #127
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    yep, best teacher can't teach any kid much of anything when they have to spend 80% of the class period keeping thugs and criminals under control.
    unfortunately, you are both right

    and notice, in neither instance is the problem found to be the incompetence of the teacher
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
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  8. #128
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    On a related note, anyone who hasn't seen "Waiting For Superman" needs to go see it. Right now. It's a documentary about the sorry state of our schools and how they can be reformed. It features interviews with reformists like Geoffrey Canada, Michelle Rhee, and Bill Gates. With your movie ticket, you also get a $15 charity gift to give to a classroom of your choice. I gave mine to a 2nd grade teacher at a poor school in DC who needed some books for her kids.
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  9. #129
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    I guess my concern is that it really doesn't address what I consider to be the root problem. the root problem isn't the existance of a small % of crappy teachers. the root problem is the % of crappy students that won't respond to even the best of teachers.
    I disagree. I think that the example of the Harlem Children's Zone shows that even students from one of the worst neighborhoods in New York City could excel, if they are given the opportunity, if someone takes an interest in them personally (which they may not get at home), and if they are placed in a school full of talented teachers. Over 90% of the students at HCZ go to college...and they aren't the handpicked best of the best students, they're just random students from Harlem who happened to win the lottery allowing them to go there. While there may be occasional exceptions, "crappy students that won't respond to even the best of teachers" are not an immutable fact of life...they are a PRODUCT of no one caring about them, at home or at school.

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63
    everyone is so concerned about getting rid of bad teachers. maybe we need to look into a method of getting rid of bad students.
    Ultimately there is only so much you can do about the students: Expel them if they're truly awful, or send them to a special school. But otherwise, there is very little that public policy can do to change the innate abilities of their students or to make the parents take a more active role. On the other hand, it should be very easy to change the innate abilities of the teachers: Fire the bad ones and hire good ones.

    Geoffrey Canada claims (and I haven't seen his evidence so I have no idea if he's right) that if we just fired the worst 10% of our teachers and replaced them with average teachers, our schools would be as good as Finland's: the best in the world.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 10-04-10 at 09:50 PM.
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  10. #130
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I disagree. I think that the example of the Harlem Children's Zone shows that even students from one of the worst neighborhoods in New York City could excel, if they are given the opportunity, if someone takes an interest in them personally (which they may not get at home), and if they are placed in a school full of talented teachers. Over 90% of the students at HCZ go to college...and they aren't the handpicked best of the best students, they're just random students from Harlem who happened to win the lottery allowing them to go there. While there may be occasional exceptions, "crappy students that won't respond to even the best of teachers" are not an immutable fact of life...they are a PRODUCT of no one caring about them, at home or at school.



    Ultimately there is only so much you can do about the students: Expel them if they're truly awful, or send them to a special school. But otherwise, there is very little that public policy can do to change the innate abilities of their students or to make the parents take a more active role. On the other hand, it should be very easy to change the innate abilities of the teachers: Fire the bad ones and hire good ones.
    i have not seen the superman movie
    but my understanding is that the students are randomly selected in a lottery
    however, those who are entered into the lottery are NOT there randomly. they are those who seek an education and/or the opportunities a good education can provide
    those traits are atypical of the typical harlem student i would submit, making the lottery selection not indicative of the typical student one would expect to find in public school

    Geoffrey Canada claims (and I haven't seen his evidence so I have no idea if he's right) that if we just fired the worst 10% of our teachers and replaced them with average teachers, our schools would be as good as Finland's: the best in the world.
    if canada said this, then he is not someone who could be found credible
    the average student in finland is more like the average motivated asian or jewish student here rather that the average student
    smart American students are as abundant and smart as they have ever been
    however, where the mass of students were average a couple of generations ago, the majority of today's USA students are ignorant and unmotivated
    improving the teaching abilities of 10% of the nation's teacher cadre will not change that reality
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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