View Poll Results: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

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  • Yes, they should be paid more each year they teach.

    4 8.33%
  • No (please explain how you think they should be paid)

    44 91.67%
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Thread: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

  1. #91
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coronado View Post
    It's a shame you couldn't have beat it out of them instead.
    yeah, that's why I decided to quit. I actually choked one of the bastards after he charged me from the back of the classroom. Choked his punk ass until he passed out. Kid was 19 years old, still in the 9th grade and had passed exactly ONE class the entire time he'd been in HS. The only reason he was still there was to sell drugs. Fortunately I had 36 witnesses who backed me up saying that I was defending myself. Finished out the school year and then found a job making 20K more a year.
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Their salaries should be based entirely on merit. Not on years of experience, or advanced degrees, or anything else. We pretty much have the worst possible system right now. Paying people the same regardless of performance (and making it impossible to fire the worst performers) pretty much guarantees that we'll get mediocrity.
    As sound as that approach is in a perfect world, it leaves a hell of a lot to subjectivity. If you work for an asshole who's got an issue with you, it doesn't matter how good you are. So, it needs to be a combination of merit and seniority.
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Why? Is there any correlation between the teacher's credentials and the students' achievement?
    I don't know of any studies that show a correlation. Which means that it's a correlation that's worth studying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Most schools have similar curricula that teachers are supposed to cover in each class. I think that if you laid the curricula from two different school boards side by side, it would be very difficult to tell which came from the wealthy district and which came from the failing school. The main difference is in the quality of the teachers.
    Perhaps I am having trouble explaining what I mean. Therefore, I shall use an anecdote.

    I have a friend who's a teacher. She was telling me one day that she is being told how to teach by the school's administrators. The way she is supposed to teach is that all of the children in her classes are "paired up" and whenever she asks a question the pair has to answer it. However, she has to make sure that the pair consult each other first before answering the question. Her school has decided to adopt this method of teaching because it has shown promise in other schools. However, my friend does not really like that method of teaching. I may also add that the students may not like it either.

    So what I object to is outside interference from allowing teachers to teach using whatever methods they can to get through to their kids. I would rather that teachers be exposed to different and new methods of teaching and then let them apply those to their classes that they believe would benefit from it rather than having school boards and administrators dictate a singular "catch-all" method for teaching. Students are individuals, and the teachers should be allowed to teach in ways that suit the individual needs of their classes rather than be dictated to by administrators.

    And I admit that I know very little about the public school system, as I went to a very small rural private school. However, because of that, my high school was beholden more to the schools' board of directors. Because of this, the teachers were given a lot of freedom in how they taught the students in their classes.

    Even though we were too small to have formal AP classes (I didn't even hear about those until my junior year) the school would group students in different classes according to their ability and according to their learning style. For example, I was in most of the "advanced" classes with the other Type-A hyper-competitive overachievers in my year, where we often had pop quizzes, given extremely high goals, and greatly challenged because we were so self-motivated. For those same subjects, however, were students who took their education more "casual" and didn't apply themselves as much. For those students, teachers used different strategies in order to educate them.

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    School boards don't do lesson plans, teachers make their own according to criteria set forth by the school administration.
    Schools should NOT be allowed to become too localized. The upper grades at a school in Idaho that my kids attended had very few advanced classes. The farmer mentality prevailed, and farmers don't see the need for such things. We moved to AZ, and the schools there were far superior.
    I suppose what I mean to say is that I am more concerned with administrators dictating teaching methods than I am with regards to curricula. I agree with you that we should give students access to a broad curricula to learn from. What I'm more opposed to, though, is teachers being mandated on how to teach whatever curricula they are told to teach.

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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    is there any correlation between the student's acheivement and the quality of the teacher?
    Yes, there absolutely is. Out of all the variables in our education system, the quality of the teacher is the single greatest predictor of the student's achievement.

    Examining the Relationship Between Teacher Quality as an Organizational Property of Schools and Students' Achievement and Growth Rates ? Educational Administration Quarterly
    http://tqcenter.learningpt.org/publi...ntOutcomes.pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63
    It has been my experience that the "good" kids are going to learn and do well whether they have a really good teacher or a **** teacher (their own motivation and that of their parents will ensure it) and the "bad" kids are not going to learn diddly no matter how good the teacher is.
    The empirical evidence does not support this viewpoint.

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63
    basing teacher merit solely on "student performance" ends up punishing those teachers that get handed the "crap" students, regardless of how good the teacher is.
    No. You can control for external variables, such as the students' socioeconomic background and previous performance, and measure how much a class improved compared to how much that particular class would normally be expected to improve.
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    is there any correlation between the student's acheivement and the quality of the teacher? It has been my experience that the "good" kids are going to learn and do well whether they have a really good teacher or a **** teacher (their own motivation and that of their parents will ensure it) and the "bad" kids are not going to learn diddly no matter how good the teacher is.

    basing teacher merit solely on "student performance" ends up punishing those teachers that get handed the "crap" students, regardless of how good the teacher is.

    that old saying, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink" is very appropriate in the public school setting. or as I like to say:

    if you give a world class chef a turd and say, "make me something to eat", whatever he prepares is going to taste like ****.
    I attended the same schools, had the same teachers, as my siblings. We did not all turn out the same. Can't see how that is teachers fault....but many insist on blaming teacher. I have had bad teachers, and I blame tenure/unions for that. Most were good, a few were excellent, can only think of 1 that was begging to be fired.
    That aside, the public schools could learn a lot from the military schools. In navy electronics school, we went thru algebra and trig in a few weeks. That was all we did, for those few weeks, algebra and trig....and the knowledge was reinforced as we progressed thru the rest of electronics training as we used the math nearly every day.
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    As sound as that approach is in a perfect world, it leaves a hell of a lot to subjectivity. If you work for an asshole who's got an issue with you, it doesn't matter how good you are. So, it needs to be a combination of merit and seniority.
    You can work for an asshole who's got an issue with you at ANY job. Why should teachers be treated differently? I'll say it once again: The purpose of schools are to educate students, not to provide jobs for teachers. While I'm certainly willing to give arguments a fair hearing if people don't think that certain policies will lead to better student results, I am almost wholly unsympathetic to arguments that don't even consider whether it might help the students and instead just argue "That isn't fair to the teachers." That's too bad, as long as it helps the students. The school is for the students, not the teachers.

    Will the occasional good teacher get fired under a merit system? Yeah, probably. Sucks for them. They can go to the school in the next district over and get a job, with their proven results in hand.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 10-04-10 at 12:19 PM.
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Yes, there absolutely is. Out of all the variables in our education system, the quality of the teacher is the single greatest predictor of the student's achievement.
    complete and total horseshi ite. the greatest single predictor is the quality of the student. the best teacher in the world can't teach a moron to be a brain surgeon.
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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGirlNextDoor View Post
    The public schools here did an 'experiment' of sorts (back in 2003) and had year-round school. The students got 2 weeks off for every 8 they were in school. Test scores actually improved and retention of information from one 'year' to the next improved tremendously. Trouble was with the parents of the students. At first supporting the year round school, but after a time of implementing the new 'schedule', they quickly discovered that households that either had only one worked and those households with two parents; both of whom worked - had real issues trying to schedule some sort of daycare for their children as taking off every 9th week for two weeks was impractical an put many families in a real financial bind.

    I think it could be doable, but like anything it will take some trial and error before a viable solution is discovered.
    Maybe what would be better than having "2-weeks off" every 6 weeks is to instead give the students 2 weeks of "self teaching" at the school once every 6 weeks. During those 2 weeks, students will be allowed to pursue their own interests at school with only a moderate amount of teacher involvement. This may turn teachers into glorified babysitters for 2 weeks after every 6, but I don't see that as being a particular problem since schools already have the facilities to allow it.

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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    complete and total horseshi ite. the greatest single predictor is the quality of the student. the best teacher in the world can't teach a moron to be a brain surgeon.
    And the best teacher can't teach a smart kid much of anything if the teacher's hands get tied by elected officials looking for a shotgun solution to education.

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    Re: Should teachers be paid purely based on years of experience?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    You can work for an asshole who's got an issue with you at ANY job. Why should teachers be treated differently? I'll say it once again: The purpose of schools are to educate students, not to provide jobs for teachers. While I'm certainly willing to give arguments a fair hearing if people don't think that certain policies will lead to better student results, I am almost wholly unsympathetic to arguments that don't even consider whether it might help the students and instead just argue "That isn't fair to the teachers." That's too bad, as long as it helps the students. The school is for the students, not the teachers.

    Will the occasional good teacher get fired under a merit system? Yeah, probably. Sucks for them. They can go to the school in the next district over and get a job, with their proven results in hand.
    There are far more inferior students in the schools than there are inferior teachers. How do you fire a student? Or the parents who don't care enough about their kids to make them do their homework?
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